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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Excellent article by trans woman - "A Plea To Trans Activists: We Can Protect Trans Rights Without Denying Biology"

34 replies

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 01:33

Excellent article by trans woman - "A Plea To Trans Activists: We Can Protect Trans Rights Without Denying Biology"

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

Don't necessarily expect any chit chat on it, just wanted to promote it as it is very good and very clear.

OP posts:
Puffycat · 04/04/2018 01:47

Self declaration worries me a bit. I’m all for people being who they feel they are, I mean if you feel like a woman and want to portray yourself in the world like that then, yes, cool
But.....do you not feel we have gone a little nuts recently?
I’m sick of listening to debates about changing rooms in TopShop.
And then we start pissing around with our language, he, she, boy, girl. Mum, dad, parent 1,parent 2, it could be a Dr Seuss!

Puffycat · 04/04/2018 01:49

Question to you OP
What are trans rights?

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 01:50

Yes @Puffycat I'm 100% with you.

I'm against self id not against trans women. The article is written by a trans woman.

OP posts:
Puffycat · 04/04/2018 01:54

Why does that make it different?

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 02:03

@Puffycat Why does that make what different?

OP posts:
Puffycat · 04/04/2018 02:13

Trans women

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 02:14

@Puffycat Do you mean "Why does that make it different?" That it is written by a trans woman?

because a lot of trans people on line are saying stuff like 'gender is between your ears and it's not what in your pants that matter, and I am a woman because I say I am a woman. And here is a trans woman taking women's concerns seriously. It's just good, to me, that's all. It's clear.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 03:21

Its different because there is pluralism with in the trans community that is not being represented well.

The voices that are heard most are TRA who are loud and profess they speak for all trans people. They tend to be the ones who hold the absolutionist position that biology does not matter.

The thing is they are at the extreme end of the debate. And this is important.

Moderate voices like Debbie are lost. This is partly because a lot of trans people simply want to be invisible and no one know their hidden pain. It takes a lot for them to speak out, especially when they are shouted down by TRAs and at times even called traitors. Their concerns about the proposed changes to the law are ridden rough shot by TRAs in an aggressive manner. There are many moderates fearful of a backlash against them because they will be tarred with the same brush as the super aggressive and overly defensive TRAs.

Extreme TRAs get all the platform time over the likes of Debbie Hayton because they make a lot of noise and are most involved in politics. Its also down to the dynamic of how media works today. In order to set.up an interesting debate or story to generate clicks / advertising revenue editors look for extreme ends of the.argument. This dynamic and trend has led to extreme islamic clerics over moderates that are more reflective of the whole community getting airtime because its 'more interesting' for audiences. Instead of an educated debate which informs the public you get shock entertainment.

The consequences of shock entertainment is to create distorted pictures of a community.

In the context of the trans debate, it means that elements which are unsavoury are all the public know about.

Given who is driving for what, if we regard TRAs as extremists rather than moderates this puts a whole different context on to how much power and influence they should be getting in politics. Why should we pander to extremists on anything? Especially if it hurts moderates in the community and has wide ranging impact to society - particularly women.

Hayton piece demonstrates well that you can be respectful to women's concerns and also seek and expect respect for being treated as a woman, whilst still not insisting you are a woman. Because you know, the limits of reality. And thats not necessarily bigotry.

I do have major issues with TRAs for this reason and their desire to smash through barriers which don't add rights to themselves, they just remove them from women.

Hayton shines a light on what is reality going on with TRAs and how its not healthy. And ultimately why it should be challenged by offering an alternative moderate perspective that can help build consensus, trust and understanding between communities rather than just fostering more division, anger, resentment and hostility on both sides.

Thats why this piece is so important and does really matter.

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 04/04/2018 03:26

What redsaid Grin

Italiangreyhound · 04/04/2018 03:26

@RedToothBrush excellently put.

OP posts:
splendide · 04/04/2018 03:32

I think it’s a good article and quite reflective of my personal views.

TheGoldenBough · 04/04/2018 07:01

Exactly, red.

rowdywoman1 · 04/04/2018 07:04

@RedToothBrush
Brilliant post to wake up to. Flowers

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 04/04/2018 07:44

Good article. Thanks Debbie, if you're about Flowers

LeatherTuscadero · 04/04/2018 08:17

"Women’s boundaries are hardly secure if they have to rely on the assumption that men wouldn’t do that, would they?"

LangCleg · 04/04/2018 09:17

Debbie does bring quite a lot to the table, I think. I don't agree with everything Debbie says - in particular, I've seen support for Mermaids, which I consider to be an abusive, dangerous, reprehensible organisation.

But Debbie understands that legalities do not confer social acceptance. Debbie understands the importance of a shared but unregulated social compact - roughly speaking, if you don't force male pattern behaviour on women whether they like it or not, if you don't gaslight them with transwomen are women, if you don't take places on their affirmative action lists, if you don't insist you should be able to work in DV refuges, then the daily acceptance will come organically vis a vis toilets and changing rooms. Debbie understands that women intuit the sex of people they interact with and that they risk assess male people almost unconsciously. Debbie understands that true social acceptance relies on TIMs not setting off women's spidey senses in the way the TRAs seem almost proud of.

It's a valuable perspective.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 09:59

Right now we are stuck in a cycle of one side being wound up by the other.

Women want to discuss things, to understand things and to know that they will be safe.

TRAs take the defensive line in viewing this as aggressive even when its well meaning, trying to be sensitive and trying to engage.

Twitter makes this particularly difficult, as everyone just gets blocked for the slightest thing.

The anger and aggression and lack of respect that women are reading in return makes them feel threatened. Indeed many comments they are seeing reflect directly experiences with abusive males. The pattern of gaslighting, the shouting of abuse, the over sensitivity and explosive reaction if you don't do or say the right thing.

This is combined with an absolutionist position and denial of why biological can not be ignored. Since biology is the source of most concerns of women and how they themselves define themselves this is a line that has to be respected and understood. If it is not, then there will always be anxiety, tension and fear of trans women. It is unavoidable.

The law might say one thing, but the law is not always right and can be tyrannical. You have to also bring people along socially. You can not force people or it breeds resentment and again fear.

All political parties and institutions need to have a good hard look at this and how they defuse the situation. Putting TRAs into office and positions of responsibility within the party means they should be acteding responsibly and held to account where they over step the mark, and cause friction. They should be trained in confliction resolution and how to de-escalate situations. Instead, they seem to be the very people making the problem worse not better. They are not being held to account for defending people, who in any other situation would be deemed socially unacceptable. In aligning with people who are behaving in a way that women perceive to be confrontational and aggressive women recoil and become fearful.

That political parties are not doing this, and are engaging themselves in patterns of behaviour and repeating mantras directly from TRAs rather than understanding that the process is as important as the end goal, and that language is powerful and provokes reactions that are understandable is poor.

It is a failure of political parties to manage effective communication and to show leadership on this matter.

It is a failure of institutions not to understand when a group is a lobby group rather than a group which is taking a balanced approach which works for all concerned in all situations.

Characterising women as the bad guys for the failures of those who should be the grown ups in the room is not acceptable. Women are responding in a way which has always instinctively kept them safe. That this isn't properly understood, shows the privilege of never having been in that environment. This comes from protected middle class women (mainly white) and men. This is not a coincidence.

The entire thing smacks of a gross inability to see the wood for the trees by political leadership. Its happening not just on this particular subject but on many others, because of inadequate and poor representation of key groups or at the very least people with proper in depth experience of those groups and a good understanding of the dynamics of power.

Honestly my mind boggles at all this. Its not difficult stuff.

Instead the situation is being aggravated. You can't hold a conversation on twitter. Women have been harassed and hounded and told to shut up in a myriad of different ways. So they organise and group together to get a louder voice so they can be heard. They talk in one place that they are allowed. So the TRAs start to attack that. Under such a situation which women perceive to be as under siege, you are going to get backs up. You are going to get women being angry and at times aggressive. Because its a defensive reaction. Its not coming from nothing. Its not suddenly appeared from no where. Its not malicious.

The very concept of 'transphobia' implies irrational anxiety. There is nothing irrational here. Its all very rational.

It can be sorted and resolved with the right political will and leadership.

Where is it? Who is stepping up to the plate?

All of this comes back to TRAs refusing to debate because they think its about removing their identity. Well tough shit. If you want to move your situation forward you are going to have to work to defuse the situation. You are going to have to earn respect and trust. Women are not just going to give it blindly, because they can't. They have to trust their instincts and a lifetime of being socialised to understand situations that leave them at risk. And especially after everything that has gone on.

Refusal to engage has helped to deteriorate the situation. It has contributed to one in which no one can be civil.

These kinds of situations are never resolved by authoritarian means. Ever.

And it beggars belief that the political parties that are involved here are all supposed to be liberal but have no concept of conflict resolution.

'Because Transphobia'.

IT.IS.NOT.GOOD.ENOUGH.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 10:03

Why is it not required that lesbians are represented on political party LGBT executives as policy, if there is under representation of them?

Their absence is striking.

LangCleg · 04/04/2018 10:07

WHAT. RED. SAID!

HomeTerf · 04/04/2018 10:07

Red I'm always impressed by your posts. But this one is particularly fantastic. Bookmarking, with thanks.

BudgieInABeret · 04/04/2018 10:08

Another excellent post red

Judder · 04/04/2018 10:15

Red I love all your posts here and wish I had your clarity of thought. Please can someone tell me how to bookmark?

HuckfromScandal · 04/04/2018 10:18

Red, wow just wow, so eloquent and just bang on the money

TheGoldenBough · 04/04/2018 10:22

I'd be interested to read a reasonable TRA response to that, red.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2018 11:01

TRAs have come at a particular time, when wider politics have allowed it. I think its too easy to become inward looking and see it as an issue in isolation.

When you start to put it into that context you can remove some of the emotion from it. You have to step back from the brink and away from that in order to be able to offer anything constructive.

The emotional investment that TRAs and people like Mermaids have in this, makes them by nature, not always the people best placed to offer a leadership perspective. Because they can not step back from that emotion. This is what makes identity politics, at times, so toxic.

Yes trans people MUST be closely involved in the process as it is all about them ultimately, but they also need to understand that they are not the only ones with a vested interest even if they do not want to admit this. If they can not manage to step back from their own emotions, and do this, they should not be the ones in leadership roles on this. It becomes essential that a third party intervenes and assesses things from a position which isn't so involved. This isn't 'cis-plaining', or trying to remove trans people from making decisions about themselves. Its about helping them communicate better with others.

The reasons why there is a communication breakdown also strike me as something which needs closer examination in terms of helping the trans community as a whole in every day life.

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