Biology

[Whatevszz]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I am relatively new to the debate re transgender and self Id etc. My understanding based on biology 101 is that sex is innate (for 99.9% and based on biologically observable criteria such as genitals, chromosomes etc) and gender socially constructed...

However just read this comment online and now I am confused because it might be about 'hormones in the womb' which no-one can really ever know about, can they?? Or am I just succumbing to willful obfuscation of facts?

From here: (comment 22) quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology

Hugh Easton 31/3/18
`Science is clear. There’s a popular, but mistaken, belief that sex is determined by X and Y chromosomes. In fact, all being XX or XY does is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles. Everything from that point onwards is driven by hormones. Because hormone levels are not binary but exist on a spectrum, sex itself isn’t binary but exists on a spectrum too.

The vast majority of people do develop ovaries or testicles at the appropriate point in embryonic development, and for most people those organs produce their hormones as they should throughout the time their prenatal development is taking place. That’s why the majority of the population fall into an easily defined male or female category. However, for a minority of people, things don’t go according to plan, and they have hormone levels outside the range for their genetic sex for part or all of their prenatal development. In that situation, you end up with people with a mixture of male and female characteristics (or in some situations are even completely the opposite physical sex to their genetic one).

Historically, medicine has looked at intersex purely in terms of genitals. However, in reality, sexual dimorphism extends throughout the body, including the brain. Animal studies show that there are hardwired differences between male and female brains, that arise before birth and drive most of the differences between adult male and female social and sexual behaviour. As with other aspects of sexual development, the factor that decides whether you develop a male or female brain is hormone levels during the time brain development is taking place.

In human beings, the critical period when the sex differences between male and female brains are thought to arise is during the second half of the pregnancy. This is long after the critical period for genital development, which starts about 7 weeks after conception and has largely finished by the end of week 12. Therefore it’s possible to have people whose genital development has taken place in line with their genetic sex, but whose brain development has taken place as the opposite sex. All it takes is for something to disrupt foetal hormone levels during the second half of the pregnancy. The available evidence points to this being the underlying cause of being transgender.

The personal experiences of myself and others, whose mothers were given hormones during pregnancy for miscarriage prevention or for various other medical reasons, also bear out the importance of hormones in determining the sex of your brain (and suggest that a large number of transgender people are probably like that because of doctors administering hormones during pregnancy).*

Or am I just succumbing to willful obfuscation of facts?

Yes.

sex is innate (for 99.9% and based on biologically observable criteria such as genitals, chromosomes etc) and gender socially constructed

This. The people claiming that sex is non-binary and/or socially constructed have presumably never had anyone explain to them where babies come from

I instinctively feel that women's hard won rights are to be protected/safeguarded and clearly there has to be a meaningful objective definition of women/female biology and sex?

They have been trying to prove for a while that XX and XY are incidental to both sexual orientation and Gender Identity Disorder because what really affects these things are changes of hormones flooding the womb. They are even giving pregnant women testosterone to ensure a manly male child is born.
The theory has failed at every attempt at proof but they do now have a cult following.

It falls apart when he starts talking about male and female brains.

Nb, you can't reliably tell the difference between a brain belonging to a male and a brain belonging to a female, particularly when overall body size is taken into account. Genitals, hormones and sex chromosomes, on the other hand, are very reliable indicators of sex in the vast majority of cases.

There is no such thing as a male or female brain. Gender is a social construct.

How people feel inside is up to them, but there are two sexes and you are either one or the other. Intersex people have repeatedly said that they don’t want to be used by the transgender community to promote their cause.

In human beings, the critical period when the sex differences between male and female brains are thought to arise is during the second half of the pregnancy.

What's the difference between a male and female brain?

OK so the hormone argument is just a red herring? I mean it could have some small, impact on physical characteristics but doesn't override the genetic basis of sexual differences? [apologies to all the scientists out there for my clumsy attempt at understanding the terrain].

women don't have dicks. Gender identity does not determine biological sex in reality and shouldn't in law. No need to go down the Pomo 'science' rabbit hole to know these things.

Thanks for helping me to understand Yes I agree I definitely think the gendered brain thing is crap. It was the 'hormone in the womb' theory that I hadn't come across before.

The whole 'sex is a spectrum' is what a colleague said to me when I asked her what she thought about self ID. I said, do you mean gender? She said no, sex as well. And if you don't agree you are a TERF! I have never been a radical anything in my life... Also, we both work in public health

To me, it seems like a circular argument - a male brain belongs to a male person, a female brain to a female person - the pituitary gland secretes hormones based on whether the body is male or female.

Thus, in a woman, the pituitary gland (at the base of the brain) will secrete things like prolactin (for breastfeeding, luteinising hormone, FSH) while in the male body, it will secrete the hormones to produce sperm.

So, if a male bodied person had a female brain (thus was trapped in the wrong body), his female brain would secrete prolactin, luteinising hormone and all the things that make a female reproductive system and sustain a female body work. Whereas in reality, hormone therapy has to artificially introduce the female hormones. Therefore, it is not a female brain because it does not do the basic tasks that female brains do.

Sex is a spectrum? 😂

So men who have small dicks are almost women and women with small breasts are almost men? 😂😂😂

Hormones in utero might have all sorts of effects on development, who knows. But they definitely don't affect sex, which is binary and determined at conception.

If that were the case, then surely nobody would have transitioned back?

Legs are a spectrum. Some mammals have pouches.

Even if it were the case, men still are the ones with dicks, and women the ones with vaginas, uteruses etc...

Mock duck really is a duck.

Sex is binary, OP, with developmental disorders occurring in a tiny number of people. These disorders don't disprove the binary because those people affected are infertile.

The easiest way to cut through all the genderist obfuscation is to think of it this way - there are two gametes: ova (woman) and sperm (men). There is no third gamete. There never will be a third gamete.

If sex isn't binary and is a spectrum, ask how these other sexes are involved in the reproductive process of humans.

Co-opting intersex conditions to push a transactivist political belief system is very wrong imo.

Thanks Katara for explaining hormones, can't believe how I nearly got tripped up by a curveball

women need specific rights and protections because of their different reproductive systems, not their brains.

I support any man who is gender non conforming, but that doesn’t make him a woman. He is embracing his own identity, not mine.

Hi OP

I think that people who know a lot about biology do discuss sex as a spectrum. But they are talking about “icing on the cake” differences. There is no debate/dispute about any of the facts that you and I would know from school biology IYSWIM.

So... It seems like, fundamentally biological sex is a necessary for the purposes of reproduction of the organism in question...

If you have male reproductive organs at birth you are (and always will be, biologically male) , female reproductive organs at birth mean female. (with, of course exceptions due to certain medical conditions, E.g. women born without a womb are women as they have other reproductive organs and also their hormones have been congruent).

Light bulb goes off!!

Are they getting confused over what the SRY gene does?

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/SRY