Lawyers this way! What realistic reforms could we make to rape laws?

[HairyBallTheorem]

Thinking of this as a brainstorming thread and also a "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" thread. By the latter I mean I don't favour removing the legal concept of the presumption of innocence because I think that's way too dangerous to do if you want a free society.

But we desperately need some sort of reform of rape laws because at the moment too many rapists are walking out of court with not guilty verdicts (thinking here of a whole range of cases).

So a couple of thoughts have occurred to me which I'd like to explore (others may want to add more ideas)

First - the move by Iceland to affirmative consent. The man needs a yes, not the absence of a no. Now I thought that was actually already in place in the UK - there's no such thing as presumed consent. However the problem is the court system doesn't apply it, and indeed I'm not sure how it could. I've heard people on here talk about asking the defendant why he thought he had consent, but since defendants aren't required to take the stand I'm not sure how this could be enforced? Could it form part of the prosecution's case? "The complainant has told us she didn't give consent, and since the defendant hasn't given evidence we have no idea as to why he might have come to the erroneous conclusion that he had consent.."

Second - someone mentioned the Spanner case on another thread (where a group of men practising consensual BDSM were convicted of assault on the grounds that actual bodily harm (I think it was ABH) remains a crime even if the victim consents. Could one apply this to rape? Any ABH carried out during sex would be a crime? (And a strict liability crime, if I've got the terminology right - i.e. one that simply depends on the actions carried out, not the intent of the perpetrator). In this case, any woman presenting to the police with bruises, laceration, bleeding as a result of sex could lead to the man being charged both with rape and with causing ABH during sex, with his beliefs about consent not having any bearing on the latter charge.

(I know a minority of women claim to genuinely like rough sex - and they'd still be able to do it, but by God it would make their partners a hell of a lot more careful about getting consent - no more strangling a woman on the first date just cos you've seen it in a porn film and assume she won't complain.)

Does it still work with the new GDPR laws? I think this is a really interesting idea for an app but I can think of so many laws that could be thrown at it to get it shut down and the problem with an app is they don't have to legally prove that it's breaking the law - they just have to convince Apple and Google not to host it in the app store.

Woman I agree with you about the limitations of Clare's law in relation of past convictions. Also I am no expert and I don't know the answer but I hope that Clare's law scheme also shows evidence of civil penalties such as restraining orders - as I do know a lot of d v victims are actually advised to go down the civil route and not the criminal route. That civil information should also be available to future women.

However it is one example where women's welfare is put above men's reputation/ privacy. So it is possible.

My example of compiling a list of defendants could be actually be started tomorrow - I have heard - anecdotally of tribunal and court lists - which are in the public domain- being used to harvest data about litigants in other areas of law for leads for business development purposes. It feels a bit ambulance-chasing and rather like "sharp practice" but I believe it has been done.

This would have a far nobler aim - protecting women and the public interest. I accept it won't protect women from a stranger in the alley but it will really help create the conditions for change as materialist has described- the need to create social stigma and difficulty for men who carry out these acts.

If big data can be used by every other corporate for their own commercial ends, there must be a way of using it for a genuine social purpose where the law so dismally fails women.

In terms of cluster B, sorry, I don't know what that means... but if it is men who have not been charged.. yes, then that would improve the value of the database/ app enormously if it could be done pragmatically/ legally.

I'm galvanised by this idea woman - its a fab concept and hope you get the funding. Plenty of investors for tech in and around London, though I do not underestimate how difficult it will be.

This is the first post that has made me feel hopeful.

Harvesting data would surely ensure anonymity is established for those accused?

Sorry, could have posted more than just a negative comment. It is all very interesting.

Chaos Sorry - if I was unclear.

I am stating that hypothetically, a list of defendants in rape/ sexual assault trials could be compiled/ produced because their names would be available (It would be subject to challenges though).

I agree there would not be much value in anonymising this list if the purpose of this is to create a warning/ alarm system for women.

I may have misused the term "harvest" - for which, apologies.

My wider (and I suppose, blindingly obvious) point was that data/ tech is used routinely by companies in many ways - I like the thought of technology being applied creatively here to ameliorate women's lives.

@Ravenheart1 - I came across this today - first I have heard of it.

www.theguardian.com/social-entrepreneurs-solving-problems-around-the-world/2018/apr/04/creating-technology-to-combat-sexual-crime-callistio-skoll-social-entrepreneurship-awards

It must be the collective unconscious!! However this app is not what I envisage as they are reliant on the College taking action against the perpetrator- but presumably because they got a lotta funding they have to stay within the "law" even though it disadvantages women.

I'm looking at creating something where the information can be shared between women

It's a good start though

Great find, woman.

This is one sensible proposed measure which could improve the way rape trials are handled:

www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/rape-trials-should-use-prerecorded-crossexaminations-says-new-report-36787586.html

Having read some of the comments on the Huffington Post article today I do believe that one key way to help is to change people's knowledge of the law rather than just their own belief. Schools do some, but how do you reach the older general population? Who still maintain that a woman doesn't have the right to change her mind, she must fight back otherwise it wasn't rape, she was drunk so it doesn't count. Etc