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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lawyers this way! What realistic reforms could we make to rape laws?

183 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 31/03/2018 18:10

Thinking of this as a brainstorming thread and also a "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" thread. By the latter I mean I don't favour removing the legal concept of the presumption of innocence because I think that's way too dangerous to do if you want a free society.

But we desperately need some sort of reform of rape laws because at the moment too many rapists are walking out of court with not guilty verdicts (thinking here of a whole range of cases).

So a couple of thoughts have occurred to me which I'd like to explore (others may want to add more ideas)

First - the move by Iceland to affirmative consent. The man needs a yes, not the absence of a no. Now I thought that was actually already in place in the UK - there's no such thing as presumed consent. However the problem is the court system doesn't apply it, and indeed I'm not sure how it could. I've heard people on here talk about asking the defendant why he thought he had consent, but since defendants aren't required to take the stand I'm not sure how this could be enforced? Could it form part of the prosecution's case? "The complainant has told us she didn't give consent, and since the defendant hasn't given evidence we have no idea as to why he might have come to the erroneous conclusion that he had consent.."

Second - someone mentioned the Spanner case on another thread (where a group of men practising consensual BDSM were convicted of assault on the grounds that actual bodily harm (I think it was ABH) remains a crime even if the victim consents. Could one apply this to rape? Any ABH carried out during sex would be a crime? (And a strict liability crime, if I've got the terminology right - i.e. one that simply depends on the actions carried out, not the intent of the perpetrator). In this case, any woman presenting to the police with bruises, laceration, bleeding as a result of sex could lead to the man being charged both with rape and with causing ABH during sex, with his beliefs about consent not having any bearing on the latter charge.

(I know a minority of women claim to genuinely like rough sex - and they'd still be able to do it, but by God it would make their partners a hell of a lot more careful about getting consent - no more strangling a woman on the first date just cos you've seen it in a porn film and assume she won't complain.)

OP posts:
CardsforKittens · 01/04/2018 16:23

I'm not sure jury training would help much: I'm pessimistic about how effective it would be. So my preference is also controversial - I think sexual assault cases should be tried by panels of expert judges. No juries. Actually I think there are very few crimes where juries are useful. But we would need these courts to be able to hand down significant sentences. And it would be expensive. And judges would need specialist training too. But then I still struggle to understand why we have juries. Maybe I'm missing something.

CardsforKittens · 01/04/2018 16:24

Argh! Meant to add: I am not a lawyer.

MyVisionsComeFromSoup · 01/04/2018 16:37

I was on the jury in a sexual assault case - it was very depressing to hear the rape myths in the jury room Sad. I don't know that any amount of training would have helped the handful of jurors who had made their minds up right at the very beginning "because we all know what x (type) are like" and "of course they're not going to admit they led them on".

And not even going to go into "well I don't want this hanging over me all weekend, and have to come back in on Monday" mentality, which meant that a majority decision was rushed into.

gluteustothemaximus · 01/04/2018 16:59

Actually I think there are very few crimes where juries are useful

I struggle with juries too. Especially in sexual assault cases, but just generally too.

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 18:56

Is a male's input likely to be welcomed on this topic? It's a very emotive subject and presenting the issues that the defence have is not likely to make for comfortable reading for many.

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 19:03

The point of the jury is really to represent what the typical layperson would deem to be reasonable / fair. Yes, they have to operate within the parameters of the law, hence needing direction, but the basic premise is 'what would a normal person do / think / believe in such a situation'.

Whilst they may well not be au fait with the finer points of law, and may not be particularly intelligent in some cases, the alternative is equally perilous in that we could have highly emotive subjects being judged on via a seemingly dispassionate process (many would say it's already that way), where the outcome is really a culmination of intellectual battles between two legal teams.

hackmum · 01/04/2018 19:05

Thank you, sawdust and pepperpop. I didn't realise this was possible.

Many years ago - it must have been the 80s or even the 70s - I remember a prominent rape trial being reported in the press. I can't really remember any detail except that the victim was quite young, maybe even underage. The verdict was Not Guilty, and after the verdict was given, the judge read out the defendant's previous convictions, which included previous rapes and sexual offences. What I remember vividly is reading that some of the jury members cried when the judge read out the convictions.

I just remember thinking how cruel it was to do that to the jury. Ultimately, like all these cases, it's a question of the victim's word against the defendant's, and the burden of proof is so high that yes, much of the time - most of the time - they will give the defendant the benefit of the doubt. How does the prosecution have a chance of securing a conviction if important information is kept away from the jury?

gluteustothemaximus · 01/04/2018 19:21

Hackmum - that's awful Sad

Again, there are inconsistencies with the victim (having past dragged up which affects the verdict) and the defendant (not allowed to have past brought up in case in affects the verdict).

Something is wrong there.

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 19:44

In theory, law is supposed to be a reflection of the people's will, developed over time. That's not always the case, but it's supposed to be what society commonly believes is fair set of rules.
Once upon a time, a King or Queen would dictate the law and it was held that a King or Queen themselves were 'above the law'. That was eventually abolished to the point where we created the phrase 'nobody is above the law' - not even the Monarchy.

Now we have specific laws for rape, and they are actually quite simple laws in principle, but they are notoriously hard to prosecute.
They are hard to prosecute not because the law specifically favours the male, but because we have a fundamental tenet of innocence until proven guilty, which places a burden of proof on the accuser not the accused. We then have a second issue in that most cases have no independent witnesses, and are often occurring in a situations where both parties are known to each other for a period of time prior (even if a matter of hours) and where the giving of consent isn't always a highly formalised process. Even when consent is given, it may be withdrawn at any time. Furthermore, there is still scope for a mismatch of beliefs where one party believes consent has been given and the other believes it has not, or has been withdrawn.

I will give one typical example (that most of us can envisage) where the issue of consent can be so complex...

A couple meet and agree to have sex, perhaps with their inhibitions diminished by alcohol, but both retaining the capacity to consent.
The couple engage in sex freely.
The following morning, in a sleepy stupor, the male elects to penetrate the female and does so for a small period of time.
The female awakes and no longer shares the desire to have sex with the male, the male accepts her decision, but the female objects to the fact he has already penetrated her and alleges rape.

The male maintains he had reasonable belief that consent was given.
The female believes she only consented to sex the previous night, but not the following morning.

It does not necessarily hold that if a female believes she was raped that she actually was, nor does it hold that if a man is found not guilty that the woman is a liar.
Equally the man may not have intended any harm whatsoever, but may be guilty of rape.

Even if the onus on consent was for the male to prove consent was given, it would not help us much. We still have a situation where a man may say 'she said yes, I asked her, repeated, and she agreed it was ok' and the female says 'That's a lie'. It is so very difficult to ascertain which is telling the truth when the agreement was formed or declined behind closed doors.

Notwithstanding all of that, we know statistically that few women make false allegations. It does happen, but it's relatively rare. However, it is very difficult in criminal law to make a judgment based on statistical likelihood, and even if it were possible, we would then end up with a self-fulling set of statistics where more convictions would further skew the statistics against the male.

The determination of consent is also complex - and this is partly why we end up looking at behaviour prior to the alleged rape.
The defendant who is pleading not guilty will invariably claim consent was given, which will give rise to the question 'How did you ascertain consent?'. He is likely to either say 'I asked and she said yes', or 'we kissed, touched, she agreed to come to my room and allowed me to continue...'
This is going to lead to the court examing the truth of this claim by seeing CCTV of the events leading up to the alleged rape.What choice does the court have in trying to establish how believable the story is?

This is a real paradox - because the law is clear, a woman can engage in whatever sexual behaviour she likes and can say no at ANY time and the man must stop. This is absolutely unambiguous.
However, a defendant is also trying to prove consent was given and usually has no proof of this (as people do not sign a contract). The only available evidence is a general feel for how he came to believe that sex was consenting hence examination of behaviour prior.

I believe THIS last paradox is the biggest problem in rape cases and it's one that there is no simple solution for.

I would like to see previous behaviour ruled out of evidence (but not events leading up to the act), but even this can be quite problematic.

GraceMarks · 01/04/2018 20:01

On the subject of juries, I have to do jury service soon and I'm genuinely dreading it. If I have to sit through a rape case and listen to a woman being trashed and all the usual rape myths being bandied around the deliberation room, I don't think I'll be able to cope with it.

I agree that juries are probably more or less useless in rape cases anyway and personally I'd like to see something more along the lines of an expert panel, as some others have suggested.

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 20:12

If there was an expert panel, the public would still argue that it needs to be more open and that the public need more transparency about how the verdict was reached.

The key problem here is that the verdicts are almost certainly not reflecting the true number of rapes that are occurring - i.e. guilty men are getting off. Sadly we don't know which guilty men are getting off.
They are getting off because it's so technically difficult to prove rape.
If we make it easier to proof (by reducing the burden of proof) we'll probably lock up more genuine rapists, but also more innocent men too. That's a very uncomfortable compromise.

TheBrilliantMistake · 01/04/2018 20:24

*prove (damn predictive text)

TwentySmackeroos · 02/04/2018 00:12

Great posts by Brilliant

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 02:36

My suggestion of an expert panel assumes public access to the court and their deliberations - not a closed court.

How anyone can say that having sex with someone who's asleep is consensual is beyond me - but that male sexual entitlement pervades everywhere - even on here

And the assertion that a few innocent guys would get jailed if the legal criteria "relaxed" has yet to be proved and sounds like an MRA justification for doing nothing to address the gross failure of the justice system for crimes against women. On balance, given the rape law and process is unfit for purpose for the majority of the population, imo it's a small risk worth taking, as in the rest of the justice system. There's a huge debt owed to women for the deliberate withholding of prosecution of sex offenders plus fair process and law, within and outside of marriage

Graphista · 02/04/2018 03:15

Also not a lawyer

I'd LOVE someone to explain to me why defendants AREN'T required to take the stand? Especially in rape and other violence against the person crimes it should be mandatory, why should a victim have to but not defendant? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

Re in camera - what seriously worries me there is the already appalling attitudes and commentary by judges who seem to me to be the worst offenders when it comes to believing rape myths AND making matters worse by talking to juries in such a way as if these myths are true 😡

I can see absolutely NO reason why what the victim was wearing, their sexual history has ANY relevance whatsoever.

I'm with Hackmum - at the VERY LEAST if the victims previous sexual behaviour is admitted then the defendants must ALSO be admitted for balance. THAT might make defence lawyers think twice about putting victims on trial! I remember that case you're talking about too - there was quite a scandal at the time.

Why are rape trials so heavily weighted AGAINST victims.

Victims real names shouldn't even be mentioned in court. No need.

Sawdust - then why are judges getting away with eg saying women shouldn't get drunk, wear short skirts etc? Never mind a mistrial - who is in charge of disciplining judges and WHY aren't they doing their job properly?

The ched Evans case was a fucking farce as was this latest Irish rugby one - nobody with any sense can reasonably believe they AREN'T guilty.

"They're just not being applied correctly" that's down to judges - serious shake up of the judiciary needed.

Cardsforkittens - I see where you're coming from but honestly look at what judges are SAYING to juries RIGHT BEFORE they start deliberations - and the woefully inadequate sentencing even IF rapists are convicted.

Brilliantmistake the big problem is many lay people still think anything other than stranger leaping out from a bush is not rape. There's a study often quoted on rape threads that was rape was described (but not named) and a high number of male respondents said they would feel comfortable behaving that way.

"The following morning, in a sleepy stupor, the male elects to penetrate the female and does so for a small period of time." That IS and VERY CLEARLY is RAPE do you genuinely not get that?! Consent for one act if intercourse DOES NOT imply consent for future acts.

And it's DEFINITELY not ok to penetrate someone who's UNCONSCIOUS! Wtf!

How many times to people need told?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

"Great posts by Brilliant" couldn't DISAGREE more

"but that male sexual entitlement pervades everywhere - even on here" definitely!

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 03:29

@Graphista

brilliant video - thx for the reminder - this should be mandatory for all kids in school and all adults - repeated weekly - just before the main news...

Graphista · 02/04/2018 03:39

I agree - and more like them.

I'd also like to see more public info on how victims react during and post rape.

Very few people even know about fight flight or FREEZE let alone tonic immobility, rape trauma syndrome etc

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 03:55

Yep re debunking rape myths - any increase in awareness would be good.

However… I have observed that even if guys (and it normally is guys that perpetuate these myths) say they don't support rape - their unconscious bias does. What I find really curious is that incongruence - they say the right thing but in the end, vote with their dick and sexual entitlement - I'm really not sure that more awareness is the way to tackle that as it's conditioning - I think it needs moral leadership from men in power - who are the very ones often who perpetrate rape and control of women - so it won't change jury outcomes as long as men are involved - well not for a lifetime at least. Depressing...

Graphista · 02/04/2018 04:02

Womanformally - have you heard of cognitive dissonance ?

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 04:40

@Graphista - yep very familiar with it - why do you ask?

Graphista · 02/04/2018 04:45

I think it's very often the case with men who would never consider themselves even sexist let alone potential rapists - yet if you dig deeper...

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 04:54

Yep the incongruence between what they say and what they do is the cause of CD - and they rationalise their own hypocrisy by blaming the victim

And their unwillingness to consider they are at fault is breathtaking

The problem is, I am now observing, that the percentage of men who fall into this category is far, far greater than many want to accept - probably even me - I think I'm still in shock - I'm thinking around a third. Have you thoughts on this?

Placebogirl · 02/04/2018 06:44

The literature suggests that something between 6 and 10% of men are rapists. That explains the high levels of rape apologia among other men, to my mind; the 6-10% normalise it. Fucking scary at an academic conference in a male dominated field, though....

fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-most-campus-rapes-arent-committed-by-serial-rapists/

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 07:11

@Placebogirl

That article is really interesting. The "few bad apples" myth is perpetrated time and time again. And as that article notes, the facts are likely to be more nuanced but men lie all the time so why aren't they doing a study of women and asking them how many have been raped and extrapolating that back to the male population? This is where the research world often reinforces the male view of a few bad apples.

I know from Anna Salters books on sex offending that reliable stats are notoriously difficult to obtain because sex offenders lie. Plus presumably also some rapists will believe they hadn't raped but were entitled to do what they did.

The only reliable stats according to Salter were obtained when the convicted sex offenders in jail were guaranteed immunity from further prosecution and their details stored offshore to ensure law enforcement couldn't get to them. Then it was revealed that each pedophile averaged 350 victims and a total of around 4000 crimes!!

I found this US report about assessing sex offenders that says that

Sexual victimization is routinely prosecuted, but sex offenders have a high rate of recidivism and are up to 10 times more likely to be re-arrested for another violent sexual assault than individuals convicted of other crimes www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2993520/

My anecdotal "a third of men" have raped/abused is based on listening to other women, plus looking at the divorce rate and how difficult it is to find a second non-abusive partner. Rape and DV is much more widespread that any research really indicates - especially when many women may take years to come to the realisation they had been raped and abused.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/04/2018 07:39

This is off topic and relates to child sex offenders - an in-depth analysis from Australia - makes for hard but interesting reading aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi429

It seems like the figures I quoted above have been revised downwards for the "average offender"

Re rape 18% of women in US have experienced rape (15%) or attempted rape (3%) according to www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence.
And assuming the true extent is much larger, and most rapists aren't serial, then I still come back to a much larger % of men commit rape than is commonly understood.

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