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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'a certain kind of sex is vanishing from the internet'

125 replies

agender · 30/03/2018 19:43

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/30/congress-online-sex-trafficking-bill-impact-sex-workers-craigslist

One of the Guardian's euphemisms. They repeat it " a particular genre of online sex, it seems, is vanishing from the internet."

They are referring to prostitution.

Why do they use euphemisms?

OP posts:
LassWiADelicateAir · 31/03/2018 13:55

There may be many things stopping them. DH (and myself actually, but i'm not at the stage of considering staff) both went self-employed after being made redundant. We were lucky to have had good educations, to have one another to rely on financially when starting up, to have good credit ratings. Not everyone is in that position

That argument actually shows quite clearly that the idea that paid employment equals exploitation of workers is ridiculous.

Following it to its logical conclusion you either get no one doing anything other than muddling along limited to the best of their own , potentially very limited, abilities; or Soviet or Maoist style communusim or the Khmer Rouge. And they worked so well didn't they.

flowersonthepiano · 31/03/2018 13:56

If you are an activist campaigning for the rights of trans people, would you consider increased risk for women and children as acceptable consequences/collateral damage? If so, you are simultaneously campaigning for abusers and paedophiles. If you refuse to accept this, you are a misogynist and a paedophile apologist.

Or maybe you are not hearing/listening to the arguments from the other side because you are entrenched in your position and see those who disagree with you as nasty bigoted people who want to deny the existence of your nice transgender friend who wouldn't hurt a fly? If that were the case, then those people are not irredeemable, they just need approaching differently.

LangCleg · 31/03/2018 13:59

Surely some can be persuaded that they've swallowed a dangerous lie.

Not to be combative but you seem to reject any truthful approach and any approach that doesn't kow tow to the worst of the TRA ideologues. This. Is. Not. Possible. That's why they're ideologues.

Look. You have compasses and weathervanes. It doesn't matter what you say to the compasses. They've got their position and they won't change it. Then there are weathervanes. These are people who - to coin a common term - will virtue signal agreement with whichever brand of compass is dominating debate.

That's why LOJ uses phrases like wrong side of history - he is trying to dominate the debate as a compass and recruit the virtue signalling weathervanes to his "side" without them ever having investigated the details and implications of what they are supporting.

You can't challenge the TRA agenda by being a weathervane yourself. I know you want that to be possible so that nobody can ever accuse you of being mean, but it just won't work. It. Is. Not. Possible. And it's female socialisation at work, to the detriment of women.

flowersonthepiano · 31/03/2018 14:02

*That argument actually shows quite clearly that the idea that paid employment equals exploitation of workers is ridiculous.

Following it to its logical conclusion you either get no one doing anything other than muddling along limited to the best of their own , potentially very limited, abilities; or Soviet or Maoist style communusim or the Khmer Rouge. And they worked so well didn't they.*

Not following your logic here?Confused

LassWiADelicateAir · 31/03/2018 14:09

You were refuting the idea, quite correctly, that anyone and everyone could be an employer/ entrepreneur- they obviously can't.

But the ridiculous idea that paid employment is exploitation of workers taken to its logical conclusion must mean that those who are capable of entrepreneurship should not do so because in doing so they will be exploiting others. Basically that is Communism, Maoism or the doctrine of the Khmer Rouge.

flowersonthepiano · 31/03/2018 14:11

LangCleg I have no problem with you being combative. And I know I'm a product of female socialisation who often tries too hard to be nice. Fair cop.
I really am just trying to get my head around all this. Arguments, even combative ones help.

So, don't we want to sway the weather vanes?

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 14:16

No you persuade the undecided, and unaware first. Change the way the weather is blowing.

Missymoo100 · 31/03/2018 14:16

MissyMoo you've lost me there..
How tf are "polygamy, incest, transgender" equivalent? They're not.

  • all i see is the moral foundation being removed and humanity now having to decide its own set of values- is incest wrong between adult consenting siblings wrong? Becomes an actual question.. turns my stomach but what is the validity in moral objection anymore? Why "no"? There isn't any reason I can see.
It's descending into a free for all, all behaviours and sexual behaviours become acceptable because the boundary has been removed. It's regression, all these things have been before. There are various movements trying to push back the boundaries, blur the lines of acceptability. I object the trans movement trying to state children have capacity to make decisions over their bodies.. it's opening more doors that should be left closed.
Missymoo100 · 31/03/2018 14:19

"Following it to its logical conclusion you either get no one doing anything other than muddling along limited to the best of their own , potentially very limited, abilities; or Soviet or Maoist style communusim or the Khmer Rouge. And they worked so well didn't they."

  • This makes perfect sense to me. If everyone is treated the same, earns the same , why would people bother trying to excel? And yes the natural conclusion is communism.
LangCleg · 31/03/2018 14:35

No you persuade the undecided, and unaware first. Change the way the weather is blowing.

Exactly. You persuade the unaware. Then you persuade the fence-sitters. Then, the weather has changed. So now, you stand a chance of persuading the weathervanes, who really aren't that committed but do want to appear nice and kind and on the right side of history.

At no point is it worth expending any effort on persuading the fully paid up cult members. It's an impossible task and, in any case, there aren't that many of them. They just make a lot of noise. And they will continue to make a lot of noise until all the unawares and the weathervanes are telling them to shut the fuck up.

flowersonthepiano · 31/03/2018 16:35

all i see is the moral foundation being removed and humanity now having to decide its own set of values- is incest wrong between adult consenting siblings wrong? Becomes an actual question.. turns my stomach but what is the validity in moral objection anymore? Why "no"? There isn't any reason I can see.
It's descending into a free for all, all behaviours and sexual behaviours become acceptable because the boundary has been removed. It's regression, all these things have been before.

OK. I understand you now. You object to moral relativism. My mum, a committed Christian is the same. I don't believe in God. Neither do most people in the UK. Which does lead logically to moral relativism in society and means that making these arguments and persauding people is all the more important.

I object the trans movement trying to state children have capacity to make decisions over their bodies.. it's opening more doors that should be left closed.

I agree with you when you put it like that. 100%. Your initial comment led me to think you thought all trans people are nasty perverts.

flowersonthepiano · 31/03/2018 16:44

This makes perfect sense to me. If everyone is treated the same, earns the same , why would people bother trying to excel? And yes the natural conclusion is communism.

You misunderstand me I think. I mean we should acknowledge that capitalism involves exploitation of labour and seek to ensure that workers are treated equitably, not overthrow the system. I'm not a revolutionary communist. In theory communism is all well and good. In practice it doesn't seem to go so well.

flowersonthepiano · 31/03/2018 16:47

Thanks RedToothBrush and LangCleg. I understand now. Your position suggests we should avoid arguing with TRAs and focus on raising awareness among the general public.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 17:35

Precisely.

You are flogging a dead horse doing otherwise. It only feeds their victim mentality too.

rowdywoman1 · 31/03/2018 17:44

I reckon that RedToothBrush's post (second on this thread) is one of the most important I've read recently about the sheer dangers to the whole of society that this poses.
Once people feel they have 'permission' to start breaking the fundamental laws that keep us safe and they are not stopped, then danger looms.
Incest, paedophilia, the right to consent, the right to safety, the right not to be medically experimented on, the right to have laws based on facts not beliefs.
I know that the discussion has moved on a bit but I'd hate to lose one of the main points - that of a threat to our ability to share common principles which are the mark of a civilised society yet are under direct threat.

AngryAttackKittens · 31/03/2018 18:26

Wow, so blokes won't find it as easy to buy themselves a blowjob through a convenient website? So sad, such a tragedy. Clearly we must all rally round and prevent this erosion of men's sexual rights.

(Not doing such a great job of hiding the "it's all about making dicks happy" agenda recently, are they?)

CritEqual · 31/03/2018 20:23

@flowersonthepiano wealth can be created entirely without exploiting the labour of others. You could paint a picture, record an album or write a novel. In short you put something in the world that others value and profit from it. Simples.

It used to be not all that long ago that most of a countries population was tied up in the simple process of growing the crops, and tending to the animals that fed everyone. As we began to mechanise agriculture we freed up greater swathes of the population to work in industry and thus we got the industrial revolution.

Again we stand on the threshold of a technological revolution with automation and communications technology rendering many jobs obsolete. Ideally humanity will all become collectively freed to examine and ask of themselves what sort of value they can bring to and put into the world, and accrue the benefits commensurate with their successes.

If we are going to talk about exploitation a man or woman who starts their own business takes the greatest risks and the successful ones will often be the first there in the morning and last ones leaving at the end of the day. So the very idea that they are not 'working' and not 'working class' is a dangerous piece of obsfucating propaganda. Why should their labour be exploited to provide for other people?

If you are talking having a social safety net I'm 100% in favour of having one, but I'd prefer one that was mostly voluntary through private charities, and not the current one that is enforced at the point of a gun. The system we have now also stigmatises, and traps people.

By concentrating resources in the hands of the most capable you get two things: more wealth inequality, but on the flip side you get way way more actual wealth to go around. Just since the 70's and 80's we have gone from 50% of the global population subsisting on a dollar a day to around 22-23%. This is due mostly to free market ideas opening up in China and India. As distasteful as it might be under a socialist worldview this is clear and away the most moral and ethical paradigm to promote when working with actual reality and not utopian daydreaming, and it is imperative that we do so.

Just to be clear we have never in the history of humanity recognised fully the economic contributions of women. Yet in truth if every woman stopped every hour of unpaid labour that they do for one year the whole world would collapse in a matter of months if not weeks. It baffles me how women are presented as an economic drain and more often than not stuck in the welfare trap.

I'm only recently educating myself on economic theory, but to my mind economics is all about the value you add into the world. Yet we render women's output invisible, but you can only make that equation work if you see humanity as essentially valueless, but it is impossible for that to be true for if humans have no value, then nothing has value and the whole logic self detonates philisophically, as it is humans that assign value to things in the first place.

I may need to delve into the complexities of the foundations of economic theory of which I still need to do a vast amount of study, but I'm currently theorising that the imperfections of capitalist/ free market principles come mainly from making women's output invisible.

I know we've had feminist academic analysis of history, literature and many other subjects, but I think one is very much needed for economics.

slightlyglittermaned · 31/03/2018 22:41

"wealth can be created entirely without exploiting the labour of others. You could paint a picture, record an album or write a novel. In short you put something in the world that others value and profit from it. Simples."

Gah. All of those examples require an existing infrastructure. Paint (even if you grind your own pigments - still need to get hold of base materials) grow, ret, spin and weave your own flax etc for the canvas, etc. Publishing novels, recording albums - even if you say "oh technology takes away the need to employ people to edit and produce" - who do you think is building the tech? Running the datacentres? The chip fabs?

AngryAttackKittens · 01/04/2018 06:04

*I think Lisa is right in her analysis - the mediating class as she calls it, of liberal commentators, journalists, policy makers and politicians is now completely dominated by bourgeois identity politics and cannot even see the impact of policy on ordinary people, especially women and children, let alone begin to formulate policy that will benefit them.

And the only consequence I can see is a massive and extreme right wing backlash.*

I agree. A lot of people are very angry with Labour, and that's going to cause a swing in the other direction. At the moment a lot of women would vote for a donkey if its PR person gave some indication that it wasn't going to actively implement more policies that will harm us.

Once you see it you can't unsee it. The people calling themselves liberals, or even leftists, and commenting on social issues for the most part have no fucking clue what life is like for the majority of the population, and the poor may as well live on Mars from their perspective. If they had any desire to know they could possibly learn, but they don't, in fact they're mostly characterized by their smugness and belief that they know better than the people directly impacted by the issues they're discussing. They can relate to some trans people because those people are part of their social circle (Jane Fae, Paris Lees, Sarah Brown). The rest of us? We may as well come with a mute button for all the attention they pay to anything we say.

LangCleg · 01/04/2018 10:35

Once you see it you can't unsee it. The people calling themselves liberals, or even leftists, and commenting on social issues for the most part have no fucking clue what life is like for the majority of the population, and the poor may as well live on Mars from their perspective. If they had any desire to know they could possibly learn, but they don't, in fact they're mostly characterized by their smugness and belief that they know better than the people directly impacted by the issues they're discussing.

Yes. And I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that even if a Labour government were elected and were to spend extra money on public services, these people would hijack the budget and spend that extra money in a way that significantly negatively impacted the people it was supposed to help.

AngryAttackKittens · 01/04/2018 10:51

Given the issues they're likely to prioritize I'm not feeling much confidence either. The whole thing about trans women having a right to work in women's shelters is a perfect example in that anyone making that argument clearly doesn't understand what those shelters are for (hint - not to make the staff feel good about themselves). If you tried to explain austerity and why it's having a disproportionate impact on women to them they'd probably get a migraine and have to go for a lie down (or just call you a bigot).

LangCleg · 01/04/2018 11:03

Video here by Peter Kyle, a "centrist" Labour MP despised by the Corbynites, speaking in Parliament about how the family courts fail women victims of DV by allowing their abusers to cross examine them due to legal aid cuts. Where are the Corbynites on this stuff? Busy telling trans widows they're bigots and DV survivors that they must accept penis in their refuges, that's where. As an actual lefty, I find it all so bloody depressing.

www.facebook.com/hoveandportslade/videos/641933309313708/

thornyhousewife · 01/04/2018 15:07

Thank you to the contributors to this thread, it has made for valuable reading.

@RedToothBrush, you express my exact thoughts.

Re: the left blurring the boundaries of autonomy/consent regarding children and their bodies is sadly something I have predicted for a while.

I also think that as the trans noise dies down, the above noise will increase and this will be the issue which 'changes the weather'.

I'm looking for practical things I can do to help.

HairyBallTheorem · 01/04/2018 15:15

Angry and Lang I think you are right. Back when Clinton was running for president, I couldn't see how democrat voters were turning their backs on Clinton and either voting third party or abstaining - in the knowledge that this might well (and in fact did) gift Trump the election. But the more I see of this sort of shit coming out the Labour party (voted Labour, until recently was a party member) the more I can see how this happened. You can only get so far from your core voters' real-life concerns before you make yourself unelectable.

Labour really have got themselves into a kind of "eat (organically sourced, artisanal, anti-capitalist) cake" mindset.

LangCleg · 01/04/2018 15:22

Hairy - I'm even beginning to make the calculation that I might as well vote for lower taxes and spend my own money directly on locally run initiatives that I know are making a difference, than to vote for higher taxes only to watch people like Little OJ dictate where it's spent (ie, not where it's needed). I never, ever, ever, ever thought that I would have such a thought process.