Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Ulster Rugby Rape Trial - Not guilty to all charges

980 replies

Quimby · 28/03/2018 12:35

Verdict just returned
Not guilty to all four accused, all unanimous decisions.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
boxthefox · 28/03/2018 17:44

There is nothing we can do now. The men have been acquitted. There is no appeal allowed against the verdict of a jury.

I am not saying it is right or correct or whatever, but this kind of thing is happening every Friday and Saturday night all over the world where drink and possibly drugs are taken. Sports men can be chased by certain women, it happens everywhere, that does not mean it should result in rape of course.

It really is one person's word against the other, unless of course there is incontrovertable proof of violent rape/assault, which I don't think was the case here.

So the burden of proof is on the woman to prove, rather than on the man to disprove. It was ever thus, and rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute with a guilty verdict, which can then of course be appealed etc.

I hope the woman is alright. It must be soul crushing for her today.

But realistically, what can be done? I wish I knew.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 28/03/2018 17:45

I believe her

QuentinSummers · 28/03/2018 17:50

box of course there is. Things need to change.

The man would have to explain what he did to actively get consent, rather than the victim defend why she didnt consent.
We could get rid of the "reasonable belief of consent" clause as it actively works against the lack of capacity clause (e.g through drink or drugs).
We could introduce a crime like "reckless penetration" or "penetrating without due care and attention" for cases where it seems the man did very little to get consent but rape can't be proved.
The court case could be heard by a panel of expert judges rather than a jury. The trial could be inquisitorial rather than adversarial (so more like an inquest or enquiry). This would also allow a wider range of verdicts.
We could use more sexual offence prevention orders where offenders are assessed as posing a risk to women, even if found not guilty.
We could change bail guidelines so men aren't hanging round for ages waiting for a charging decision and so the impact on innocent men is minimised.

I think in light of this case it should be forbidden to use rape myths as a defence.

So saying that because the victim didn't scream/fight back, she consented shouldn't be allowed given what we know about stress responses (fight, flight or FREEZE)

Suggesting her motivations for reporting shouldn't be allowed unless it can be backed up with evidence.so saying she was scared of videos going viral shouldn't have been admissible.

boxthefox · 28/03/2018 17:52

The "I believe her" thing is very noble and supportive, but anyone saying that would need to have been at the trial every single day to really stand over what they are saying, not what social media tells them to say, and rise up together in a frenzy of right on judgment.

Knee jerk reactions are ridiculous. The defence did not meet the burden of proof. That is the reality.

Result is the men were acquitted. That is the law.

There is nothing wrong with believing the woman, however there is nothing more to be done now. If there is (apart from her taking a civil case) I would love to know what it is.

Rape is notoriously difficult to successfully prosecute. We all know this. Maybe some judicial research into why this is so might be more productive than a multitude of hashtags.

boxthefox · 28/03/2018 17:57

@QuentinSummers.

Agree with you all the way.

The will just does not seem to be there for this radical thinking though sadly. Despite all the Rape Crisis Centres and women speaking up and all the rest of it.

kikashi · 28/03/2018 17:57

Zibbidoo that is so grim - I'm beyond words today. Utterly, utterly depressing.

Maryz · 28/03/2018 18:00

Having followed this closely, read most of the Irish Times and Belfast Telegraph reports and a number of very detailed twitter feeds, I've come to the conclusion that at least one of the men was lying.

They had to be - their stories didn't match.

Whether that is because one was telling the truth, or because they were all too pissed to know what was going on, or because it was a deliberate tactic to confuse the jury I don't know, but it is not possible for all of their stories, as told under oath, to be true.

So presuming at least one of them was lying in court, at least one of them is guilty of something. And another is guilty of deleting evidence. And they are all guilty of misogyny and treating women extremely badly (according to themselves).

Therefore, they should not be representing their country in a sport watched by thousands of impressionable kids. These guys are not heroes.

fia101 · 28/03/2018 18:02

I understand everyone has a right to legal representation but I wonder if any of the defence barristers have daughters. The questions they asked weren't to get to the truth but present a discredited image of the young woman

boxthefox · 28/03/2018 18:04

Maryz,

Without wishing to sound too ridiculous, I have a feeling that there are many places where sportsmen, and men in general gather where the air will be punched tonight in solidarity with the famous four.

Think about it, I am probably not 100% right, but certainly not wrong about the pack acting that way WRT women who might dare defend themselves.

ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo · 28/03/2018 18:05

It really is kikashi. Those poor girls.

7to25 · 28/03/2018 18:18

I looked at my phone and saw that this story was about 8th in the order.
Wharbouys was number one (fair enough) but a deaf musician was number two.
And I like classical music BUT somebody made that decision

Maryz · 28/03/2018 18:21

I see mumsnet are deleting posts now, so I will rephrase

Having followed this closely, read most of the Irish Times and Belfast Telegraph reports and a number of very detailed twitter feeds, it seems that all the men's stories didn't match which is a bit strange as they were all giving evidence under oath.

If that's the case, then at least one of them was lying in court; we know for sure that another is guilty of deleting evidence. And they are all guilty of misogyny and treating women extremely badly (according to themselves).

Therefore, they should not be representing their country in a sport watched by thousands of impressionable kids. These guys are not heroes.

Maryz · 28/03/2018 18:24

Sadly, boxthefox, I think you are probably right.

I'm comforted a bit by a conversation I had with a group of rugby playing teenagers the other day who concluded that they are scumbags whether or not they are found guilty of anything. These kids admitted that the contents of their WhatsApp groups isn't great, but even they saw that these guys attitudes were beyond acceptable.

I've suggested they delete and restart their groups, and think a little more carefully about their own attitudes.

EventNotInData · 28/03/2018 18:33

I value MN and don’t want it in danger from a libel trial, and I also haven’t followed the full details of this case, but I will say that a strategic campaign of loud libel in less financially vulnerable spaces could be defended on the balance of probabilities not “beyond reasonable doubt”.

Or, yes, a civil case for damages if the poor woman could summon up the almost superhuman emotional strength necessary. That is why we can safely say that OJ Simpson is probably a double murderer regardless of his legal “innocence”.

heateallthebuns · 28/03/2018 18:54

It was inevitable they would get off because as Quentin said "The man would have to explain what he did to actively get consent, rather than the victim defend why she didnt consent.
We could get rid of the "reasonable belief of consent" clause as it actively works against the lack of capacity clause (e.g through drink or drugs).
We could introduce a crime like "reckless penetration" or "penetrating without due care and attention" for cases where it seems the man did very little to get consent but rape can't be proved." Proving that they did get consent is the only way cases like this could result in conviction.

SophoclesTheFox · 28/03/2018 19:04

Agree with what maryz posted.

Someone was economical with the truth in some way.

It wasn't the woman.

And at very, very least these men are atrocious, pitiful specimens. I have nothing but the profoundest contempt for them and their supporters.

Another #metoo moment. Honestly, fuck this world sometimes. This shit has to stop.

boxthefox · 28/03/2018 19:12

Sophocles,

Do you not think that the prosecution could have rebutted all that to shreds?

They didn't.

SophoclesTheFox · 28/03/2018 19:13

I don't follow. REbutted all what?

QuentinSummers · 28/03/2018 19:20

Because the prosecution have to comply with loads of rules around admissible evidence and lines of questioning. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems as though similar restrictions don't apply to the defence and they can speculate away.

That's probably ok in other cases because the integrity of the complainant isn't being questioned. But in rapes in often ends up as his word against hers. In that case the complainant should be protected. She's not on trial

boxthefox · 28/03/2018 19:56

Sadly this will be old news in a day or two. It really will be.

NEXT....

SpringNowPlease2018 · 28/03/2018 19:59

that information from Twitter

does anyone know what the origin is?

Will court transcripts be available?

QuentinSummers · 28/03/2018 20:01

Frank Greaneys Twitter feed is very thorough spring

SpringNowPlease2018 · 28/03/2018 20:01

7to25 "I looked at my phone and saw that this story was about 8th in the order."

yes I have been surprised at the lack of prominence on news sites...but, I wonder if it's to protect her identity?

SpringNowPlease2018 · 28/03/2018 20:02

*sorry I should add
I mean, less coverage might mean fewer crazies trying to locate her

thank you Quentin, I will look at that.

Swipe left for the next trending thread