Royal College of Psychiatrists Statement

[dorade]

What hope is there when respected scientific organisations uncritically adopt phrases like "sex assigned at birth" and use "two spirit" people as evidence for the need to mutilated bodies to a facsimile of the other sex?

Report here

"watch and wait" paragraph seems to have been inserted as an afterthought. The paper assumes so much without question that this one paragraph is simply meaningless.

"cisgender" - that is not a thing!! The purpose of cis is so that trans people can be included in the usual definition i.e cis women and trans women. There is no such thing as a woman or man only subsets.

They recommend research into how to deal with "very young gender diverse" children. wtf does that mean!

It uses the term "conversion therapy" and then that this may be against the EqA. That is such a pejorative term which has strng connotations.

I could go on and on.

Is a refusal to provide surgery/medication included in the definition of "conversion therapy?" I think it is.

It's amazing to see your history of science lessons come to life isn't it? all these terms we accept today in so many fields. They all started with a bunch of blokes using whatever terms would be ok with the King that day, etc, etc.

Strongly held beliefs which lack physical evidence are quite common. As a rule, we don't take these strongly held beliefs as evidence that the object of the belief is real

We do take the reporting of states within the mind and associated behaviour as evidence of real things though, of course we do. Depression is a "real" thing - it's a thing which we're pretty sure exists, and we can evidence that by the fact that lots of people report a particular feeling in conjunction with particular behaviours; that's how we know depression is a real thing. Similarly I suppose ASD or sensory processing disorder (I don't know about these things incidentally, it's just someone else mentioned ASD).

We know such things are real not because lots of people believe in them, but because lots of people report certain feelings in conjunction with certain behaviours that lead us to conclude that they are "real" things.

Interesting theory about transgenderism being akin to ASD incidentally. I suppose I can see how you'd come to that flowers.

Beliefs are only evidence of internal mental conditions, not evidence of external physical realities.

Well that's the thing, they're not trying to evidence something external, they're saying that these people's reported feelings evidence a real internal thing - i.e. "gender".

thanksjanes I've just looked up philosophy of the DSM and it is WAY interesting. Thanks for the heads up!

@flowersonthepiano I read the Nature article and came to the same conclusion. Not taking the plasticity of the brain into account, it seemed to show that the brains of trans women are not the same as natal women where differences could be observed. Instead parts of their brains were differentiated from natal male brains in a way similar to that of men suffering from depression or some other disorder (which could be linked to dysphoria).

By the way, whether or not psychiatry is a science has been long debated. As already posted, it has often been in the thrall of society norms and expectations and accused of subjectivity.

Transgenderism is nothing akin to asd. Asd is a neuro developmental condition present from birth which manifests in early infancy. It affects all areas of an individuals functioning. As a parent of a child with asd hearing remarks like this does make me very cross.

:) rat

I did wonder what someone with experience might think about that Wheresmy. On further thinking I imagine both those with experience of transgenderism and those (like yourself) with experience of ASD would be keen to emphasise the differences. FWIW I agree with you.

I don't mean to offend anyone connected with either condition. I was just trying to think of another condition that can be pathologised, but where people with the condition may not consider an illness. I also don't discount the possibility that transgenderism could be a neurological condition present from birth...

I seriously doubt a newborn baby has any consciousness of its gender!

@Wheresmyfuckingcupcake of course not! But the if transgenderism is caused by, or contributed to, by brain differences present at birth, these could manifest as gender dysphoria as the child becomes conscious of gender. It's hypothetical. I wouldn't fancy writing the ethics application for that study. It would be a good one for the 100K genomes to consider though. ...

ASD is not one thing.

I expect transgenderism isn't either.

if transgenderism is caused by, or contributed to, by brain differences present at birth

If it was, there would be the simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose it. But, of course, there isn't, because all the studies activists like to quote do not control for, as one example of many, homosexuality. If it was possible to diagnose dysphoria via a brain scan, it would be protocol. It isn't, so it isn't.

And even if it were possible, it wouldn't mean that someone has a soul, separate from their body, that belongs to the opposite sex. It would just mean that their brain, be it male or female, was slightly off kilter to the population average for male or female brains. Just as a 6ft 4in woman is an unusually tall woman but not a man.

Asd “not one thing” what does that sentence mean?
Asd is a pervasive neuro developmental disorder. Transgenderism is not. There is no equivalence between the two things.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake.

Autism is not one thing - take a look at the many many discussions on this one the special needs board.

if transgenderism is caused by, or contributed to, by brain differences present at birth

If it was, there would be the simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose it

Would it really be a simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose though? You can't diagnose sexual orientation by brain scan as far as I'm aware, and yet I'm pretty sure I was born this way. And by that I mean it wasn't anything anyone did that made me straight and nothing anyone could do could change it.

I'm definitely not making a direct connection between transgenderism and homosexuality (yes, yes, one is a sexual orientation), but I am genuinely curious as to why our inability to currently identify transgenderism in the brain means it can't be something present from birth.

But what did you mean when you wrote that statement?
I’m well aware of what asd is - I live with it.

it's just a statement that many of us came to find helpful after discussing asd and autism with each other for about five years on a daily basis.

we didn't come up with a summary of the summary, but all the references are there on the SN board if you want to plug in the words.

I recommend the posts by a poster whose name included terms similar to "jimjams" as a starter.

LangCleg

If it was, there would be the simple matter of a brain scan to diagnose it. But, of course, there isn't, because all the studies activists like to quote do not control for, as one example of many, homosexuality. If it was possible to diagnose dysphoria via a brain scan, it would be protocol. It isn't, so it isn't

That's just not true. New diagnostic techniques are developed all the time. Just because it isn't possible now, doesn't mean that there are no biological differences that may be used for diagnosis in the future.

And even if it were possible, it wouldn't mean that someone has a soul, separate from their body, that belongs to the opposite sex. It would just mean that their brain, be it male or female, was slightly off kilter to the population average for male or female brains. Just as a 6ft 4in woman is an unusually tall woman but not a man.

I think I agree with most of this. I'm certainly not arguing for souls or that transwoman = woman. I'm arguing that there may be a biological basis for the feeling of gender dysphoria and that there is evidence that supports it, but no proof as yet.

So what you presumably mean is that asd manifests in different ways in different people. That’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is akin to transgenderism. It isn’t.

I don't believe in souls either.

But I am prepared to believe that some people experience a strong sense of "gender" - and that that feeling is innate - and that they were most likely born that way.

You can't diagnose sexual orientation by brain scan as far as I'm aware

It is more settled (as in better studies with proper control groups and genuine peer review) that gay men have brains that are slightly more "feminine" in a few areas than it is than trans people do.

That said, as I am about to say to flowers, brain plasticity means we really don't know the balance between nature and nurture and likely never will.

Nobody said it was the same as asd thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth. Just that the way we think about people with ASD, ie definitely not neurotypical but not necessarily ill, might be a useful analogy when discussing transgender people

When you put it like that flowers it makes sense to me.

which does not place any pressure on children to live or behave in accordance with their sex assigned at birth

what they ought to say is live or behave in accordance with cultural norms associated with their sex assigned at birth