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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Meeting With Stella Creasy Advice Please

137 replies

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 28/03/2018 10:39

NC for this.
Has anyone else met with her?
I forwarded the Sex Matters document but from her communications it seems that she doesn't understand the harms beyond codifying gender stereotypes into law.

My feeling is that someone who only sees that will also think that self-ID is a good thing because it does away with stereotypes ie it means that you can look, act, think and live like a bloke and also actually be a bloke, but as long as you 'feel like a woman' then you can legally 'become' one, without conforming to any stereotypes or needing them codified into law.

Thanks in advance for any advice on preparation for the meeting or handling it. I am worried my mouth might run away with me and do more harm than good.

I am meeting her tomorrow.

OP posts:
MsBeaujangles · 28/03/2018 15:07

@RefuseToDenounceBiology, I've sent you a PM.

IndominusRex · 28/03/2018 15:18

Yes to statistics and yes to medicine.

Also see the 'labour losing women' article.

slug · 28/03/2018 15:29

She's the MP for Walthamstow isn't she? About a quarter of her constituents are Muslim and a reasonably large number are Jewish. Ask her how self ID will affect services for her constituents.

After every answer, ask her how this will affect her religious constituents and what, does she think, will be the effect on her vote share should someone choose to run against her next election on the platform of "Stella Creasey took away your rights to dignity and safety"

grasspigeons · 28/03/2018 16:28

I agree with Rapidonsetfrustration that you want to stick to the area of hospital segregation

I think you don't want to cover too many points either as you just wont have time

Things that are probably less likely to stray into you just don't like trans people and think they are all perverts are:

how symptoms present differently according to BIOLOGY so you need to make sure you are dealing with the right biology even if you use the persons preferred pronouns. (show the great lung capacity chart or how a male liver can cope with a different amount of alcohol) and single sex wards allows staff to tune into that.

Having trans people recorded is the wrong biology could impact on important research /statistics that take place in a hospital setting or errors like pregnant men having an x-ray

safety - I would probably stay away from the idea that trans people are a risk as the only trans people I know aren't a risk, but focus on how self ID is easy to exploit, whereas the current system is less exploitable and how that ease puts all women including transwomen at increased risk.

Dignity /consent - this is really difficult as some people are happy naked in the middle of a shopping centre, and some are covered head to toe and both would probably say there were dignified.

however, I would say at a very basic level we live in a society where our genitals, in the presence of the opposite type of genitalia are always covered, unless we consent to them being uncovered and in a hospital ward that is really difficult to maintain (especially in those stupid hospital gowns)

Does anyone more knowledgeable know how Ireland and Canada deal with self id and medical stuff and single sex wards

Theswaggyotter · 28/03/2018 17:03

Since you are talking about hospitals I would mention the case where a psychotic woman was forced to share a ward with a biologically intact male who self id as female. Her psychosis related to paranoia about TRAs wanting to kill her and she was forced to share with a man! She then felt less able to access healthcare with subsequent mental illness as she had been branded transphobic while on the Ward. You couldn’t make this stuff up!

WeAreGerbil · 28/03/2018 17:38

I think the point about individual TIMs being a risk is irrelevant, as girls and women we are socialised to keep ourselves safe by assuming any man could be a risk as we don't know who is and who isn't. These are reactions that we are getting from the bit of our brain that warns us of danger, it's become instinctive, it's not about conscious thought, particularly for the many of us who have actually been assaulted. It's there for a good reason and in any other situation we'd be telling our daughters to take note on their instincts to keep them safe. Now who knows what people are recommending we tell them, though I know what I'm saying! In hospital if people are feeling unsafe and being triggered it's going to affect clinical outcomes.

CharlieParley · 28/03/2018 18:09

Wow, that's a lot of good pointers. If you still need an example to use - When I met my MSP I led with asking him what made Eddie Izzard a worthier woman than me that he should be given priority in a company board member selection process for a female space.

That exact question wouldn't work for you of course because I spoke to my MSP about a particular new Scottish law, but what impressed my MSP was that Eddie Izzard is much more representative of the majority of transwomen in the UK than the vulnerable transsexuals the politicians think they are protecting.

GIRES, a trans rights organisation submitted the numbers in evidence to the Transgender Equality Inquiry. According to this (top of page 2):

Only 5% of the UK's trans identified people have sought any medical help (please note "medical help" also includes therapy), and less than 5000 have got a GRC. So 16 to 19 out of 20 transwomen in the UK are like Eddie Izzard (non-med, non-op). No need to stress he's a crossdresser.

Good luck and let us know how it went!

bunbunny · 28/03/2018 18:15

I would ask her to clarify exactly what certain terms mean to her before you start, 'to make sure that we are not talking at cross purposes, as happens a lot when people start talking about trans issues, I have noticed...'

And then get her to provide her definition of a woman, a transwoman, a word to identify non-trans women if her definition of women included transwomen, the number of trans people who don't have surgery, the difference between transgender and transsexuals, the proportion of transwomen with gender dysphoria vs AGP and so on.

If in those first couple of minutes you can get to understand exactly where she is coming from, make sure that she has the basic facts and you aren't talking at cross purposes, then it should be much easier to see which direction to take and to make sure that she gets to see the reality.

Oh and yes to using the sentence proposed earlier as an opener too about supporting trans people rights to live their lives with dignity etc.

If you have time I would also do a little digging into her background and see if there's anything in it that is gender atypical - even if it's just having short hair and liking playing with cars or dinosaurs when she was little - anything that you could use to say that today, that could be enough for people to say that she was trans rather than that she happened to be a girl with short hair that liked dinosaurs and that although we're trying to break down the barriers as to what girls and women should or shouldn't do or like, there are some people who are popping up all too quickly to try to strengthen gender stereotypes because it suits the radical trans lobby. Sorry, not explained that very well, hope you get what I'm trying to get at though!

CharlieParley · 28/03/2018 18:17

Sorry missed out the bit that explains the 16 to 19 out of 20 transwomen calculation:

650K estimated trans people (1% of UK pop)

30K have sought any medical help (5% of trans pop)

up to 130K could seek medical help eventually (20% of trans pop)

5K have a GRC (and those had to at least have a plan to medically transition, ie at a minimum plan to take cross sex hormones. As bottom surgery is such a drastic step, the number of post-op transwomen is therefore vanishingly small)

SmurfOrTerf · 28/03/2018 20:06

I agree CisPink it is a very good article, worth printing out.

Chocolatecake84 · 28/03/2018 20:13

I posted this in another thread but it seems pertinent here too. Sorry for the double post.

I think it's important to ask difficult questions like these.

Transwomen and transmen already have human rights, as they should. They have the right to live as they choose and to be free from prejudice, discrimination and harm. What they do not have the right to do is "to claim membership of a sex to which they CATEGORICALLY DO NOT BELONG, if it comes at the expense of the original members of that sex being forced to cede their own rights to definition. That is not a human right. It should never be a human right to force others to falsely identify themselves for the benefit of another." (Anon). Women have the right to name ourselves women and females and to talk about our lives, our experiences and our bodies. Transwomen can take hormones, they can have surgery. They will always be male. Likewise, transmen will always be female. It is impossible to change sex. That's just reality, not transphobia or bigotry.

Ask her why is all this only going one way? If transwomen really are women then transmen really are men. They should have male privilege. Why then, do transwomen dominate the movement? If transmen have male privilege why aren’t they the dominant voice?

Why aren't men's spaces being invaded? Why aren't men being told they're transphobic or bigoted for talking about their penises? Why isn't their language being changed? Why is the meaning of woman being changed but the meaning of man remains adult human male? Why is it ok to have men-only and transwomen-only groups and spaces but women-only is bigotry? Ask about sports. Why does she think it's fair that males are allowed to compete in women's sports? Doesn't the fact that transwomen are famous for achievements in entertainment, business etc whilst transmen are famous for giving birth tell us something? We're not smashing gender roles but actually reinforcing them.

Why does she think we have same-sex spaces in the first place? It is for privacy and dignity as well as safety. Women are human beings, like men and we are allowed privacy and dignity in our private spaces, like men. There are also hundreds of cases of men taking advantage of gender identity laws in the US and Canada to harm women and children. How can we have a movement like MeToo, which shows how prevalent sexual violence against women is and then think it’s acceptable to let men into women’s private spaces? No one is suggesting every transwoman is a danger to women in segregated spaces. The presence of a male bodied person in a female only space makes women FEEL threatened. Women seeking shelter or a private space are entitled to not have to FEEL threatened in the place they are sheltering.

In Ireland, despite the gender identity law, men and women in prisons are still segregated by sex. Why? If she believes that transwomen and women should be separate in prisons but not elsewhere, why is this?

Transwomen say they’re scared to use male spaces because of the threat of male violence against them, usually from strangers. Women in abusive relationships are scared of their partner hitting or raping them. Heterosexual men have been attacked in toilets. The last one is pretty rare but it does happen. Why then, is it not the same when a woman says that she has the SAME fear of male bodied violence from a man who is a complete stranger to her in a female space? Men are the physically stronger sex. Who does she think would gain the upper hand in a struggle?

Why is it acceptable for a transwoman to feel uncomfortable being searched by a man at a club and request a woman? Never mind the fact that a woman may not want to search a man. But if a man follows a young girl into a changing room and undresses, and she is frightened, she is a bigot? What about Muslim women? Are they also bigots for not wanting to see men in their private spaces? What is happening here is not equality. One group is clearly more important than the other group.

Why is saying a woman is an adult human female dangerous? Why is speaking the truth dangerous?

If transwomen are the same as women, then why do they need the word trans? What are they transitioning from and how are they the same as women?

If a woman isn't an adult human female then what is a woman? No-one has provided any other definition of the word woman. So how do transwomen know they're women if they can't even define the word woman?

Make sure you mention that over 80% of males claiming to be women retain their male genitalia. Many also take no steps to pass as women. No hormones, no surgery. With self-ID they wouldn't even have to dress "feminine" (whatever that means). A man in jeans and with a beard can literally say he's a woman and nobody would be allowed to challenge him.

Ask her how men know they are women. They claim it's a "feeling" or an "identity". This is really insulting. They are reducing women to a feeling inside a man's head. And how do men know how women feel?

Tell her about the recent rises in upskirting in schools. This was reported on yesterday. Girls are wearing shorts under skirts because of the rise. How can we teach girls (and boys too) boundaries and consent whilst at the same time telling girls that sometimes they are not allowed to say no to males in their private spaces? They are not allowed privacy and dignity because the feelings of men and boys come first? You could mention the Girl Guides and their policies allowing boys to sleep and shower with girls.

CisPinkHoodie · 28/03/2018 20:22

Smurf/Darth

I have also emailed it to my MP

CisPinkHoodie · 28/03/2018 20:23

Excellent post Chocolatecake

SmurfOrTerf · 28/03/2018 20:37

Chocolate that is excellent.
Good idea Cis

LizzieSiddal · 28/03/2018 20:54

Chocolate you’re post is fantastic. Thank you.

2kidsandcats · 28/03/2018 21:37

Don't know whether it's too late in the day, but could you print out some resources - examples of autogynaephilla, research etc and hand it to her so she can digest it and look over it later? I think I read somewhere the brain remembers hard copy better than online stuff. She may still tip it in the bin of course... Oh and the online misogyny of course.

bunbunny · 28/03/2018 22:03

Another one to add to Chocolate's fab list - if transwomen really are women then how come they don't give up any titles/money/etc that they inherit as first born males while transmen - following the logic of becoming men - don't gain any first born male inheritance rights.

If they really believe that they have become women or men then why are they not taking their place in the inheritance pecking order as their newly acquired gender rather than retaining their sex based place? Or maybe the question should be why have law makers kept that as an exception?

Chocolatecake84 · 28/03/2018 22:21

Thanks all.

*if transwomen really are women then how come they don't give up any titles/money/etc that they inherit as first born males while transmen - following the logic of becoming men - don't gain any first born male inheritance rights.

If they really believe that they have become women or men then why are they not taking their place in the inheritance pecking order as their newly acquired gender rather than retaining their sex based place? Or maybe the question should be why have law makers kept that as an exception?*

Yes, exactly. I think the government knows what they are doing, otherwise why have the exception?

There are also schools like Eton and some private girls schools that are not accepting girls/boys respectively. So they know all this is utter crap.

OP, you can take the SAGES factsheet sages.org.uk/ and also a summary of the EA 2010 and the six legal exemptions fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet.pdf.

Good luck.

Chocolatecake84 · 28/03/2018 22:22

Oh damn, I didn't get the bold bit right. Sorry.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 29/03/2018 00:01

Thanks everyone.

OP posts:
bunbunny · 29/03/2018 06:44

I've just thought of another thing to add to your list... At what point does she think that somebody can say for absolute certain that they never ever want to have children? Because currently many natal women who request a hysterectomy and/or sterilisation for excellent reasons (severe gynae pain from endometriosis, fibroids etc, knowing they never want to go through being pregnant again, etc etc) in their 30s and 40s are being told no because they can't possibly know just yet they don't really want any more children.

There have been many threads on mumsnet from people who are desperate, have excellent reasons for wanting these operations and basically being told to run along like a good girl and come back once they have been through the menopause as they can't really really know for sure. This isn't due to the surgery being rationed because it's too expensive and they've run out of budget (which would be annoying and you would hope to be put on the list but expect a long wait) - but due to grown women being told they cannot possibly know how they will feel in the future.

And yet they are happy to take the word of children, many of whom haven't yet really begun to even think or experience about sex or sexuality properly, let alone who can know for sure if they will want kids, and chemically and/or surgically change them so that they will never be able to have any sort of functioning genitalia or even have decent reconstructive surgery. And as for having a pleasant or enjoyable sex life or kids - no chance.

These kids are throwing away something that they don't know about and happily being encouraged in their choices by the medical profession which, at the same time, is telling much older women that they cannot possibly make a decision about because they can't know yet...

So if Stella had 3 kids, crippling pain from endometriosis and was desperate for a hysterectomy to solve the pain, she would usually be told that she couldn't know, and to come back in 5-10-20 years when they would think about it, and to knock back a couple of paracetamol and deal with the agony in the mean time. Meanwhile she could have a 12 yr old or 16yr old dd who was going through puberty in a swirl of hormones and teen angst who decided she was trans and she would be told no problem and put down for tablets and maybe surgery (even if that is scheduled for age 18) with no problems.

So how can doctors say that women don't and can't know while at the same time saying that children can?

JeNeSuisPasVotreMiel · 29/03/2018 07:24

I'm taking notes as I have been rebuffed on this by my MP.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 29/03/2018 07:40

I'd just explain that, in order for society to function, we need a working definition of 'woman'. If it no longer means the sex class, we need different criteria, which somehow includes all females, including those not presenting in a 'feminine' way (which is loads) and also includes TIMs, but excludes TIMs who are not really TIMs or are criminals.

I'd mention the fact that the MoJ figures have seen a sudden spike in the number of "women" convicted both sexual assault, and specifically of rape (now 6), which, given rape is a penis-specific crime, is odd, to say the least.

Good luck. Personally, I think she's an idiot and that she'll constantly try and deflect from the issue.

PencilsInSpace · 29/03/2018 07:43

Good luck!

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