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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

My friend has just told me he's trans and I'm just really sad.

50 replies

Mallorie · 25/03/2018 22:06

I hadn't seen him in person in a few months until today (he lives about an hour away) and he's grown his curly undercut into a bob and had it straightened. My heart sank the moment I saw him and sure enough, after we killed a bottle of wine he told me he's realised he's non-binary at least and probably, actually, a woman but that he's going to see how it goes and is on a waiting list for a gender clinic. And before anyone jumps on me, he told me that his pronouns are still he/him for now.

He was - is- such a delightful weirdo, never seems to give a fuck what anyone thinks. Makeup when he feels like it, mad gorgeous charity shop outfits, tall, beautiful, looks like a gingery young rupert everett, and probably the only genuinely down-the-middle bisexual man I've ever met. We'd talked about it before and he always said he was happy as he was - a man - but it looks like that's changed now.

He's one of my oldest, dearest friends, and I will call him what he asks me to call him and change the pronouns I use when/if I'm asked to but I'm just sad that there doesn't seem to be room for fabulous men in vintage furs and eyeliner anymore. I reached peak trans a while ago (thanks to a TRA who bullied their way into and tried to take over a professional group I ran) and I'm definitely gender-critical, but still in the closet about it. It feels different now that it's someone that I love and care about who is 'transitioning' but if anything my gender critical views are stronger now. I am considering telling my friend how I feel, but I'm not sure yet if it's worth the risk.

Anyway. Have any of you had any close friends/family decide to 'transition'? If you're gender critical/radfem, do they know? How did they react?

OP posts:

NotTerfNorCis · 25/03/2018 22:15

Wonder why he thinks he's a woman. Is he uncomfortable in his own skin, or does he think liking feminine clothes and styles means he must be female?

NotSureThisIsWhatIWant · 25/03/2018 22:15

I know 3. I cannot imagine them being anything else but the women they now are.

I’ve got very defensive of them. I admire their courage, it is not an easy decision. Compared with how happy they are now and how miserable they were before, I find it remarkably petty to make their life misery because they are not biologically as “us”. Humanity and compassion are more important than binarity.

Boulshired · 25/03/2018 22:32

I think you can be gender critical whilst compassionate to individuals. I have only met lovely trans women but I am still critical of self ID and the importance of biology.

NotSureThisIsWhatIWant · 25/03/2018 22:51

The problem is that one negates the other. I’m not 100% sure about self ID but to insist in binarism would negate who they are, or make them an aberration.

I do certainly believe that nature is not binary all the time. It is not our call, people stuck in the middle have been born since the beginning of times.

Hulo · 25/03/2018 23:21

How does he know he is a woman? I always wonder especially as we know he is not. He sounds a fabulous man. I understand your sadness.

Does your friend know any other men similar to himself? Maybe you could introduce him to people like @HeyThisIsRya (she has just made a video about possibly detransitioning to live as a feminine man - without changing her current appearance) or @hopepinkboots (who lives a trans feminine man).

The closest transitioner I know is the trans son of a friend. I wouldn't mention anything GC to either. Otherwise, it's been more acquaintances - I haven't spoken to any since I became GC; I'm honestly not sure how I'd be but I'm not sure that I could lie to them.

Fairenuff · 25/03/2018 23:24

If he was a good friend I think I could ask him what it is about him that feels 'womanly'.

DNAnotGRA · 25/03/2018 23:26

I think you need to speak your truth in a way in which your friend will understand. I lost my son to this insidious agenda but I remained true to reality. I live in hope my child will see through the insanity and that reason and logic prevails. Best of luck

NoSquirrels · 25/03/2018 23:27

The problem is that one negates the other. I’m not 100% sure about self ID but to insist in binarism would negate who they are

Would it negate who they are, though? They are trans/non-binary, they can be trans women or trans men, but they just can’t ever be biological women or men and to insist they can is magical thinking. It’s not denying them as people their experience of life and how it feels, it’s just denying that they can be something completely opposite biologically.

Trans people experience life as trans people. What is othering about that?

NotSureThisIsWhatIWant · 25/03/2018 23:30

How does he know he is a woman?
Or better said, not a man?

Biological differences explained here

angryburd · 25/03/2018 23:36

A good friend of mine for many years has finally begun transitioning after a lifetime of being unhappy with who he is. Why would I be sad about this? He will finally be able to be happy and live his life as the person he always felt he should have been. He has my complete support.

Landed · 25/03/2018 23:43

DNAnotGRA same here

mirialis · 26/03/2018 00:11

to insist in binarism would negate who they are, or make them an aberration

I don't see why it negates who someone is - OP's friend is a male who identifies with the gender stereotypes of females and feels happier being able to fully embrace that and potentially altering his bodily appearance to be more like that of a female. That is who he is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in itself.

Intersex people - which is nothing to do with being "trans" - are "an aberration", which is why it is rare and why many are infertile. Being an "aberration" isn't necessarily a negative thing, and we most of us have issues, positive and negative, of various kinds.

Why would the OP feel sad? Well - quite apart from the fact that it has altered their personal friendship dynamic, and it may get better or worse but either way it will be different - it means that her friend is a) suffering from dysphoria which is a disorder/illness rather than simply being happily non-conformist and b) may well go down a route where he has to take medication for the rest of his life and undergo pretty gruesome surgery.

Why would you not feel sad about a friend finding themselves in that position? If this makes his life better then good but surely you would prefer your friend not to have to go through that to be happy? If he does not, well then I guess not much has changed other than he will feel happier being called "she" and "woman" but will also face a lifetime of people not really thinking that he is a "she".

It won't stop him getting a job, getting married, having children (by whatever appropriate method), getting benefits, healthcare and so on but I absolutely understand why the OP feels sad that her friend feels this way. She thought he was happily non-conformist and loved the fact he was happy to put on some slap and don a fabulous coat and not give a fuck, and now he's saying he's actually suffering from dysphoria.

thebewilderness · 26/03/2018 00:22

If gender is the latest euphemism for personality then denying gender variations would negate who they are.
I wish they would widen the bandwidth of the personalities men are allowed. Their personality options have really tightened up in the last 25 years.

angryburd · 26/03/2018 00:23

Maybe OPs friend doesn't feel content being the amusing sideshow (fabulous man 🙄 ). Maybe he actually has given a fuck for a very long time, and has grown tired of trying to hide it.

I would obviously much rather my friend was happy as he is, but he isn't, and it's not my place to tell him otherwise.

nooka · 26/03/2018 00:27

I think it's a bit unwise to assume that someone who transitions will automatically be happier. There are often a lot of associated comorbidities which likely will remain and living as a transwoman may well be harder than living as a man even a non conforming man (or a transman rather than a woman). Plus as the OP has not said her friend is currently miserable I'm not sure it's right to assume that he has had a lifetime of being unhappy and so this is the solution to his problems.

Not sure what I'd do in your position OP except for affirming that you accept and care about your friend for who they are. I'd worry about why they suddenly wanted to go down this path and wish that they felt could stay as the person they are without hormones or surgery. When you have spoken in the past did you express your gender critical views then? If so it would be easier to talk about your concerns now. Otherwise I'd take the same sort of approach you would with a friend who had joined a religion and just try and avoid discussing it as much as possible.

bkgirl · 26/03/2018 00:35

I am a bit lost with all this but I hope your friend gets good counselling before he goes much further. It would be too awful to regret getting bits cut off afterwards. He needs to be 100% positive then of course he needs your support. This whole gender disphoria thing vs trans with all the bitterness is unhealthy. We need serious investigation not bullying even medics from investigating/discussing it. I hope your friend finds happiness whatever way it works out.

mirialis · 26/03/2018 00:45

I would obviously much rather my friend was happy as he is, but he isn't, and it's not my place to tell him otherwise

Right, so in fact you do understand why the OP is sad that her friend is unhappy and might have been for a long time when she thought he was happily not giving a fuck.

The OP is not trying to tell her friend he is happy as he is She is wondering whether she should be honest with her friend about her gender critical views or not.

I really don't get what's wrong with being "fabulous" btw - I know plenty of fabulous men and women who are exactly as the OP describes: marching to the beat of their own drum (in a variety of ways), in a world of conformity. So it is a huge shame that he feels he has not been honest about that and now feels the need to conform to binary gender stereotypes when he seemingly flouted them so freely before.

SaffyMcDonut · 26/03/2018 00:52

Come on MNHQ this is getting offensive on hear now. You need take a stand.

PositivelyPERF · 26/03/2018 01:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

thebewilderness · 26/03/2018 01:17

Saffy's only post in the Feminist chat is an attempt to get MNHQ to silence women.
Maybe Feminism isn't the place for you Saffy.

DannyLaRuesBestFrock · 26/03/2018 01:19

I think you can be gender critical whilst compassionate to individuals. I have only met lovely trans women but I am still critical of self ID and the importance of biology

Couldn't have put it better myself.

SaffyMcDonut · 26/03/2018 06:09

What is offensive is posters jumping on to complain when they are under no obligation to read the thread. That's a weak argument. I don't think it works like that.

SusanBunch · 26/03/2018 06:30

I don’t think anyone said anything offensive. I would support him. Being gender critical is actually not incompatible with supporting trans rights and wanting trans people to have dignity and rights. It just acknowledges that there must be sex-based exceptions ensuring women only spaces based on biology.
How is that anti-trans?
I hope he is happier living this life or whatever life he wants to live.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 26/03/2018 09:15

I don't think there's anything offensive in the op. I'd be very sad if a friend announced they were trans simply because a) I'd be sad they felt unhappy or confused living in their own body and b) I don't like the idea of healthy body parts being cut off or people taking drugs which will have side effects.

I would support any friend in that situation and love them just the same. It wouldn't change how I viewed them ir treated them and I'm guessing that's the same for most radical feminists on here. There's a difference between being unhappy in your own skin and wanting to alter your body and muscling in on women's spaces

smithsinarazz · 26/03/2018 09:28

Your friend believes something you don't believe - that a man can become a woman - and wants to live his life according to that belief. Well, he's a grown-up, so you have to let him. You love him, so you can't antagonise him. But he's your friend who you sink bottles of wine with, so you've got to be as honest with him as is compatible with staying mates. I'm guessing that when he told you you didn't say "That's wonderful!" so he'll already know you aren't entirely on board. Maybe that's all you can do or say. Maybe he'll be up for a proper big chat about it.
Either way, he'll still be him, even if you have to call him her. Tricky, and I'd be sad too, but you don't have to lose people because their existential views change.

Saffy - for goodness' sake, if you think something's offensive, you really ought to say what it is, and why. Otherwise how is anyone to know?

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