My friend has just told me he's trans and I'm just really sad.

[Mallorie]

I hadn't seen him in person in a few months until today (he lives about an hour away) and he's grown his curly undercut into a bob and had it straightened. My heart sank the moment I saw him and sure enough, after we killed a bottle of wine he told me he's realised he's non-binary at least and probably, actually, a woman but that he's going to see how it goes and is on a waiting list for a gender clinic. And before anyone jumps on me, he told me that his pronouns are still he/him for now.

He was - is- such a delightful weirdo, never seems to give a fuck what anyone thinks. Makeup when he feels like it, mad gorgeous charity shop outfits, tall, beautiful, looks like a gingery young rupert everett, and probably the only genuinely down-the-middle bisexual man I've ever met. We'd talked about it before and he always said he was happy as he was - a man - but it looks like that's changed now.

He's one of my oldest, dearest friends, and I will call him what he asks me to call him and change the pronouns I use when/if I'm asked to but I'm just sad that there doesn't seem to be room for fabulous men in vintage furs and eyeliner anymore. I reached peak trans a while ago (thanks to a TRA who bullied their way into and tried to take over a professional group I ran) and I'm definitely gender-critical, but still in the closet about it. It feels different now that it's someone that I love and care about who is 'transitioning' but if anything my gender critical views are stronger now. I am considering telling my friend how I feel, but I'm not sure yet if it's worth the risk.

Anyway. Have any of you had any close friends/family decide to 'transition'? If you're gender critical/radfem, do they know? How did they react?

Come on MNHQ this is getting offensive on hear now. You need take a stand.

Take a hike, Saffy. Plopping onto a thread and shouting abuse is just one of several hackneyed tactics. It's not new. It's not clever. It's not a truth bomb. It just makes you look foolish and aggressive on a thread where the OP is looking for compassionate advice. That you don't even notice ad hominems are out of place on such a thread reflects on you, not the OP or the posters replying to her.

OP, if you were a staunch atheist and your friend suddenly converted to a particular religious faith and told you that it was really helping them to make sense of their life, you would be able to be supportive of this while not hiding your own atheism, right? Look at it a bit like that.

Such a difficult line to tread, OP. I feel for you, and for your friend. But it could be that, at this stage, he would genuinely benefit from someone talking through all sides of it with him, and all the implications. Not with an agenda, or to put pressure on him to change his mind, but to explore what has prompted this decision and whether that has anything to do with a current trend that he might come to see differently in ten or twenty years time (which would be my concern for him.) Obviously, because he is your friend you will love him however he presents, and support him entirely, and I'm sure you'll leave him in no doubt about that because your deep affection for him shines through your post.

I was thinking yesterday about one of my first serious celebrity crushes, when I was about 13 or 14. It was on the singer Marilyn, who presented as the most beautiful, glamorous woman, went by a female name, but never changed his pronouns. It was entirely unproblematic to me. He was wildly sexy and unmistakably male - though regrettably (as far as teenage straight me was concerned) gay.

Not sure where I'm going with that... Just that these days that ability to present as you like and own it has been undermined and medicalised, whatever Theresa May says about it not being an illness. Hormones and surgical intervention on a healthy body suggest otherwise.

You need take a stand.

I agree. I suggest banning people who come to threads just to complain about them, if only because it would raise the average IQ of MN.

I believe caring about trans people and wanting them to have the best life experience possible is entirely possible.

I rarely see genuine transphobic comments on here. Quite the opposite. Most posters show a lot of compassion even if recent political movements towards self-ID and teaching in schools do not sit comfortably with their GC stance.

In the case with your friend, it sounds like he's not 100% convinced yet. You can give him your shoulder and encourage exploring all options as well as perhaps helping him understand the root of his sadness. Depression and human emotions are tricky, we (men as I am) don't often like talking about them, and Trans is currently being presented as an easy identifiable cause. Especially for someone already gender fluid it may seem like the cure-all answer when really the problems are much deeper but petrifying to face directly. I'm sure you'll find a way to be a empathetic guide without belittling his questioning.

I'd be sad, too.
But my friendships wouldn't survive a man telling me he was female like me. And no man who respects you would do this anyway.

I'd support my friends expressing themselves as eccentrically as they like, but the moment they co-opt MY biological reality to wear as their 'identity', we're probably done.

I'd throw some gender critical information and GNC male examples his way, and I'd explain the harm that comes from suppressing the rights of several billion females to have their own recognition which is separate from his identity.

But I view it like I would if he turned up on my doorstep and explained he lived in my house now, because he identified as belonging in it.

My reality trumps his imagination.

I would be sad as well OP. If one of my friends was so unhappy with their body I would be very sad indeed that they were suffering in that way. FWIW I would tell him. I would do it very gently and say something along the lines of; I’m so sorry you’re suffering, I support you 100% but I also feel really strongly that nobody can change their biological sex. You could ask what his thoughts are, does he think surgery/hormones will make him a woman or would he be a trans woman who is happy to say they are somewhere in between men and women? It’s a really difficult thing negotiate but I think as long as you genuinely support him I would hope he saw you weren’t attacking him.

To other posters shouting transphobic, again, most people on this board wholeheartedly support trans rights to live and identify as whatever they like. We do not support the erosion of women’s rights to accommodate this. Some things should remain sex segregated and the best way to accommodate trans people’s rights is probably a third space, tailored to their unique needs. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be what TRAs want.

He's one of my oldest, dearest friends, and I will call him what he asks me to call him and change the pronouns I use when/if I'm asked to but I'm just sad that there doesn't seem to be room for fabulous men in vintage furs and eyeliner anymore.

I feel you, OP. For various subcultural affiliation reasons I've known quite a few men like this, and I dread one day hearing the news that one of them has started taking estrogen and thinks he's a woman now. It should be OK for men to be that way, and it used to be, even if only in small pockets of society. What the hell happened?

I think that having to buy into something you don't fundamentally believe in deep down isn't good for your own mental health.

Are you going to want to hold his hand whilst he gets a fake vagina, or "accept" him as a woman with a "ladypeen"? Of course, you'll have to then be comfortable seeing the ladypeen, because he's a woman, you see?

If he wants to tell you all about his sexual encounters as a "new woman" you'll have to, or be labelled unsupportive and transphobic? (even if it makes you feel icky) He'll be all excited to "be a woman" and you'll have to endure lots of sex and intimate anatomy talk.

Are you going to agree to sympathise if he feels rejected "as a woman"? (whilst inside, you're still thinking "ffs you look like a bloke facially")

I wish I could tell my younger self: "you are entitled not to engage with someone who chooses to put themselves in a very weird/complicated/overdramatic situation involving their mental health".

You can treat him with courtesy and respect, but personally I'd distance myself from the situation.

wtf are you talking about??

I sometimes wonder if the 1980s 'gender bender' pop stars would be on the trans conveyor belt these days.

@Mallorie I'm sorry, I totally get why you are upset. Share what you feel you can while supporting him as a friend.

Difficult

If he has come to you saying that he had found Jesus, you might have had an opinion on that but would probably not necessarily had serious debates about it. Although some would, of course

If you have to discuss it with him you could discuss in those terms: that you are happy he has found happiniess but it's not something you 'believe' in. But that of course you still love him and will support him.

I don't think you have to buy into the 'tranwomen are women' thing to be supportive. Like you don't have to believe in religion to continue to love a religious friend.

Hopefully he will not go all TRA on you and insist you believe, because that's probably where you will fall out.

Hopefully he will be enough of a friend not to ask you to pretend you believe something you don't.

I hope it works out for both of you

I'm just sad that there doesn't seem to be room for fabulous men in vintage furs and eyeliner anymore.

This phrase has been in my head for a couple of days now. I agree and it echoes what a lesbian friend of mine said recently about how lesbians are being "erased" in the vogue for claiming to be transgender.

I absolutely understand why the OP feels sad that her friend feels this way. She thought he was happily non-conformist and loved the fact he was happy to put on some slap and don a fabulous coat and not give a fuck, and now he's saying he's actually suffering from dysphoria.
That may be it, or she may be uncomfortable because her dear friend has moved I to a group she considers should not be acknowledged, because she believes they're deluded. She has the same dilemma as people in previous generations who reviled gay people, then found out a close friend d or relative was gay.
It has brought it home that these are real people, most of them quiet, decent, and someone's lovely friend.

OP " I'm just sad that there doesn't seem to be room for fabulous men in vintage furs and eyeliner anymore"

Ive mentioned this before, I have a gay male friend who no longer wears dresses or makeup because he doesn't want to be thought of as trans

Hes quite angry about this now, twenty years ago he could have worn make up with no issue

We have two transsexual friends who had full surgery and hormones. We're all "Wtf" at the moment but I have to keep shut because I suddenly my thought, did the surgery start with a concept of "lady brain" and it just wasn't expressed?

For me I guess I want the trans folk to actually transition, not just wear skirts with no underwear and demand access to the ladies.

It's so outrageous! I went out with coolest guy in the school, who wore eyeliner and has old fashioned hair setter in his hair to make it stand up - totally The Cure. (Showing my age, pre hair mousse). He was interesting, went on to do art etc.

These fuckers are making men not being able to express themselves too.

Loving the fact that the trans "allies" have now moved on from trying to control what women say to trying to control what women think and feel (not allowed to be upset or worried about friend who's suddenly declared himself trans, only happiness and celebration allowed). Maybe try to be a teensy bit less of a control freak, eh?

@Mynewnameforabit why are you comparing being trans to being gay a few years ago?

Surely many people presenting now as trans were once recognized as gay; lesbians who now wish to transition to be straight men and gay men who wish to be straight women.

As people who know people struggling with aspects of gender dysphoria, including rapid onset gender dysphoria, of course we love our friends and family members. We do not fail to love them because they are 'trans'. I am sure some people may do so, but not everyone who is gender critical is going to turn their back on their friends just because they start identifying as trans.

What is hard is to see people who might at one time be seen as gender non-conforming, feeling the need (or perhaps the pressure either internally or externally) to conform to a sex-based stereotype.

You are indeed right to remind us that our loved ones are fabulous and lovely people. But when you see fabulous and lovely people faced with the prospect of hormones and surgery, it must be very hard.

As far as not wanting to acknowledge trans people, I think many of us were (and at times are) supportive of trans people. But sadly, there are so many ways that women's rights (like sports) are being eroded that it does feel very personal as well. I am only trying to explain how I feel because I want you to know it is not through a lack or love or care for those we know who are identifying as trans.

PS Most people I know (and have spoken to on line) with trans identifying children in their families are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to be supportive. However, the idea that one can only really be one's true self by identifying as the opposite sex/gender does feel like an idea that is being imposed onto gender non-confirming people.

When an anorexic girl insists she is fat, this is delusion, because she objectively is not fat.
When a flat earther believes that there is a conspiracy to make us all believe the earth is a globe, they are also deluded, because we can prove objectively that they are wrong.

When an XY man with a penis and testicles believes that he is an XX woman with ovaries and a uterus he is deluded.
If however, he merely believes that he is compassionate, talkative expressive person who likes dresses and ballet, BUT also that these traits embody the essence of people with ovaries and so they and he are innately and invisibly the same.... then he is still deluded.

Woman and female are not identities or feelings. There is no group feeling or psychology that women share.

Why do men keep believing this?

We're not going to pretend women have this mythical womanly internal essence so that some men can insist they match us.

Trans identities are utterly dependent upon defining OTHER people as matching them, when we don't.

Identity is about SELF, not about OTHERS.

I absolutely understand why the OP feels sad that her friend feels this way. She thought he was happily non-conformist and loved the fact he was happy to put on some slap and don a fabulous coat and not give a fuck, and now he's saying he's actually suffering from dysphoria

That may be it, or she may be uncomfortable because her dear friend has moved I to a group she considers should not be acknowledged, because she believes they're deluded. She has the same dilemma as people in previous generations who reviled gay people, then found out a close friend d or relative was gay

It has brought it home that these are real people, most of them quiet, decent, and someone's lovely friend

WTF? Why this persistent and ridiculous comparison with gay people? Yes this is a world of prejudice when people "deviate from the norm" and many people do not like gay, interracial, mixed religion, big age gap (think Macron and his wife) relationships, they don't like sudden and extreme religious or political and so on but NEWSFLASH: none of these people need to take medication or have surgery to alleviate their symptoms of dysphoria. They ARE deluded to the extent that they will choose a lifetime of medication and want to remove body parts in an attempt to be happy. If this is the only way they will be happy then of course a friend will absolutely be there for them but even if you were the most pro-trans person on the planet I cannot imagine why you would be delighted to see a friend need to undergo this process.

When an XY man with a penis and testicles believes that he is an XX woman with ovaries and a uterus he is deluded.
If however, he merely believes that he is compassionate, talkative expressive person who likes dresses and ballet, BUT also that these traits embody the essence of people with ovaries and so they and he are innately and invisibly the same.... then he is still deluded.

Yes, and the long term answer to this problem is for it to be socially acceptable for men to be compassionate, expressive, interested in personal adornment, etc without having to pretend to be women. Although the focus of feminism isn't on men and shouldn't be, if we got what we wanted it would in this case help men like that too.

How difficult for you, OP. Could you encourage him not to take any irrevocable steps yet? Maybe you could say - truthfully - that you have heard most men who start to ID as trans don't have any medical treatment, so has he thought about just ID-ing as a woman? That leaves him with a route back, without you having to express your concerns about the trans movement as a whole.