The Deptford People Project and the impact of self-ID and transactivism on working class women

[BloodyFreezing]

Interesting interview with Lucy McDonagh, co-founder of the Deptford People Project in this article:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

nosquirrels thanks for the changes in law post - really informative

along eith the examples that hesterton gave.

i think the funding argument is hypothesis of something that could possibly happen - so im scepticle of that

womens scholarships - anther good example to add to hestertons examples thank you light.

also the crime stats - re: how the police are funded based on stats so that has a definate impact

i think the boardroom scenario - whilst it might happen in an odd circumstance - i find it unlikley as an example

sorry about the miscarriage and the shitty thread you posted 2 kids - and i know there are women haters out there, i just think it is magnnified to soething it isn't within the confines of the feminist threads on MN. that is not to say there aren't some monumental fundementalist women haters there are - i know ...but..

anyay thanks for being patient with me, thanks for not thinking i am bieing deliberatley goady ( was going to give up trying to get an answer about an hour ago glad i didn't). thanks for not just telling me to fuck off the feministm threads and engaging with me. i like MN when it works!

custy

The article in the OP is fantastic, and really highlights the class issues involved in all this.

Custardo - for what it’s worth, my view is that the elements of gender and identity politics as practised by white middle class students of the type described in the article are part of a backlash against both second wave feminism and minority rights.

I think it comes from the same sort of thinking that leads some men to believe that the feminist movement has led to women being advantaged over and above men. As other groups that are the victims of discrimination (BAME, LGB) are given more protections and a voice, some people in the white majority feel that they no longer have a voice anyone wants to listen to. Of course that’s not true, but it leads to this oppression olympics mentality.

White middle class liberal students can’t of course shut those new voices down, but they feel boring and perceive that privilege comes from being oppressed. How else can they, as straight white people, join the oppressed? By claiming to be trans or gender queer and bellowing at anyone who either doesn’t understand or doesn’t want to play by the insanely complicated rules of their philosophy.

It is, of course, extremely distasteful to play at oppression in this way, and centring themselves at the expense of people who are genuinely struggling will make it harder for real victims to access support.

And their privilege is such that they can (and probably will) walk away from their ”oppression” at any time. No longer a trans lesbian, just a boring old white, straight man. For these woke students this is a fad, which wouldn’t be a problem if it didn’t have consequences for truly oppressed people, as so eloquently explained in that article.

So, @custardo, it isn’t that being a woman would bring advantages to a man working in an office or some such. For people who don’t have gender dysphoria or sex fetishises, a fancy pants gender identity brings social capital in the twitter age. In some cases, social capital can turn into real capital online.

Many different reasons why men would choose to identify as women, including

• genuine body dysmorphia
• sexual kicks (AGP)
• hatred of women (taking away their stuff so they can't have it, even if the man doesn't really want it himself)
• attention seeking (it's amazing how skinny effeminate boys can go from invisible to "stunning and brave" overnight if they come out as trans)
• to access spaces where women are vulnerable (the lengths that men will go to for access to vulnerable women and children is astounding)
• denial of homosexuality (in countries like Iran where being gay is punishable by death, there is a huge % of trans people, whilst Bible Belt America also has more than average % of trans people as being trans is "preferable" to being gay)

Plus I think many men don't really believe that women are oppressed: they challenge the stats on the gender pay gap, they are argue #whataboutmetoo, they say that we get custody of children more often / retire earlier / only have to work part-time.... And genuinely (or disingenuously) think that being a woman is an easy option

It makes it appear a normal mainstream thing to state that there is pink brain and blue brain. It is even in law that there is a way of thinking and behaving that makes you a woman. This is a damaging sexist subtext for all women.

We've been fighting gender stereotypes for years. The improvements have benefitted us all. Going back to old stereotypes damages us all.

“The first thing Lily Madigan did upon receiving their GRC was to apply to volunteer for women’s refuge. This is a white, middle class, 20-year-old male (who has not medically transitioned), who took their school to court to be able to wear a skirt. Lily wasn’t applying to volunteer because they felt they had something to offer victims of domestic violence. Lily was using women’s refuge to validate their identity and enforce transgender rights regardless of the effect on female victims.”

And this is meant to be the the person representing women in the Labour Party - you're drinking the Trans kool-aid Labour Party…..

Also is this why Womensaid are reviewing their Trans stance - anyone know? I am still very concerned that they will buckle.

@thebewilderness

Men court women and we are the gatekeepers to sex.
The say they do everything for us and we should be grateful.
This is the message of the patriarchy. The media sells it and the men buy it. Some women do too, but most of us see the difference between the narrative and the lived experience.
If boys believe the story the patriarchs tell about women it should come as no surprise that some might covet the power the patriarchs claim the girls have to seduce them.
If you read the transgender identified men's words that is what they are saying. They want the womanhood the patriarchy tells them we have. Until they experience a little of it. Then they call it transphobia.

Really insightful comments - the number of times I have seem MRAs even Jordan Peterson claim women are gatekeepers for sex, we have the power etc etc and I have to really steady my thoughts which have gone into cognitive dissonance when I hear that. I think what the fuck? Have I more power than I think? Am I not using that power?

And then I come back to reality where I literally have no real power - on my own

if we are an oppressed sex then what is the benefit to men?

As others have pointed out, men who 'identify' as women don't actually get treated like women, and they certainly don't share in women's oppression - how could they, when sex-based oppression is based on having a female body?

Simply saying that he 'identifies' as female and then adopting some feminine appearance norms doesn't magically move a man into the other sex class - people don't suddenly start to believe that he is literally female.

It really shows how objectified women are, how almost no one believes that we are real people with a specific, material reality of oppression, that people think that men can 'become women' and experience sex-based oppression simply by taking on some feminine appearance norms.

No one treats a man in lipstick and a dress like a woman, because everyone knows he's not a woman - most often, in the West at least, such men are treated like super special, vulnerable men who need to be protected and coddled and certainly prioritised above actual women, and have their special needs indulged (which is another reason why some men adopt a trans identity - it allows them to get away with creepy shit that ordinary men would be socially shamed for, such as openly sexualising pubescent girls and then claiming it's because they are pining for their lost 'girlhood').

The claim by trans activists that trans-identified men are more oppressed than women because they suffer both sexism and transphobia really exposes this doublethink, because it is impossible for a man to suffer both at once. A trans-identifed man can only experience 'transphobia' if people are aware that he is 'trans', i.e., male, which by definition means that he isn't being treated as a woman.

I’m not sure in many cases that there is a logical benefit to men. There’s a reason it has long been considered a mental illness. Feeling like you’re the other sex isn’t something that is driven by rational thought of the pros and cons I don’t think.

The question of how it disadvantages women has been pretty well covered I think. One of the things I find difficult about all this, and specifically with joining in with any kind of campaign is that in the short term, these changes aren’t going to affect me particularly. But in the UK, they will affect marginalised women who don’t have much voice. I feel it’s important that those who can speak out, do.

I have also had a peek into a possible future this morning on Twitter. I started looking at what SOGI123 is. At first it looks admirable. It’s all about allowing children to be who they are and preventing homophobic and trans bullying. I read right to the end of a pamphlet put out by the “anti” campaign and didn’t much like it as it was church-based and overbearingly moralistic. Easy to dismiss. But the final paragraph was all about the fact that pupils, some of them very young, had explicitly been told not to tell their parents when certain events were happening. And that makes my blood run cold. Because if you shut out dissenting voices by stealth, especially if you are directing your message at very young children, then it opens a huge question about why. And this is happening in Canada, a place I long thought was rational and a good place to live.

@custardo
i think the boardroom scenario - whilst it might happen in an odd circumstance - i find it unlikley as an example

Have you heard of Philip Bunce (sometimes known as Phillipa, or Pips)? Do have a google.

I love it when someone asks the real basic questions.

Custardo's daughter is a .

yep seen the psort argument - doesn't affect a lot of women tbh. how it is going to affect me - my daughter?

Just to respond to this - I think that if the proposed changes are made to the GRA, it will affect most women in some way, even if it's just about statistics, there will be an impact. However, I also believe that if it only impacted 5% of women, then it would be worth fighting against - particularly considering that the changes will mostly impact prisons and services for vulnerable women in a significant way.

When it comes to women's rights we have to ask if politicians say it's ok to disadvantage 1% of us to prioritise TRAs, what is to stop them impacting 5% of us, 10% of us? Where do we draw the line if we are willing to give up the fundamental ability to name ourselves as female and women which is the basis of our right to sex segregated spaces?

Custardo, my attempt to answer your question on the impact on women.

Firstly, it's that women are being asked to budge up and make space for men who believe they are women, when it should be men who are budging up. The needs of men (who identify as women) are being prioritised over the needs of women. OK so maybe you're not a muslim swimmer etc so aren't directly affected, but all the individual examples do add up to quite a widespread impact on groups of women. In cases such as these, the argument 'oh it's just a tiny minority of situations where this has an impact' can work both ways - its insignificance could be used as an argument for doing nothing as much as for allowing change to override women's concerns.

Second, and for me the larger issue, is the silencing effect. Our country's parliament will support something that most people don't believe is true - namely that, say, a man is a woman because he says he's a woman. Unfortunately, no amount of wishing that to be true can make it so. But give that the force of law, and people won't feel comfortable recognising the plain truth of what their eyes tell them.

This silencing effect stifles debate so who knows what might happen when activist groups start exploiting its strange implications? Slowly we start to become untethered from reality. This year it's 'I'm a woman', in ten years it's 'I'm actually black', then our grand-children will be asking 'why can't I be a cat? I say I'm a cat.' I hope that doesn't sound too apocalyptic, but self-ID is a step - perhaps a baby step, if you don't see it as an important issue - away from good law based on science, evidence, need, consultation etc, and a step towards a world of magical thinking where we're asked to believe that 2+2=5.

@custardo

This is an interesting video to watch. Again, it is from America but I think that it gives a good overview of a few issues and how changes to GRA could impact women in U.K See 38 minutes in, I hope this is useful.

Basically, if gender identity trumps sex then you can't say that you sacked a woman for sex discrimination - because men breastfeed as well. Or as men can now get pregnant if you're sacked for getting pregnant it nothing to do with your gender - so your employer could not be sued.

Also, I saw this video and then I despaired for the future of the world. @DrRadFem does this look familiar? Victim culture in full effect in Canada where GRA style changes to self identification has been in place for a couple of years. You must accept all their beliefs or you're hurting them. It's beyond parody.

Safe spaces for entitled white rich kids over actual oppressed people. Poor people don't have any safe spaces why should entitled college kids crash into their services and demand they reinforce their identity?

This is my question, and has been right along. I ask because we have codified belief into law before and it has never ended well for the society that did so.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

I enjoy that post (or its variants) every time, thebewilderness

Custardo you said that you have a grown up daughter. Do you have any granddaughters?

I've seen a couple of threads where posters have teenage daughters who know male to female trans at school. These girls are very welcoming and all is great. The problem is that the trans person is then given the chance to change with the girls, in an open changing room. Nothing to suggest that there is anything predatory but these are teenage girls, uncomfortable with their bodies. And the trans person is teenage boy (at least physically). The girls are being told this is happening. And if they have any objections, or request somewhere to change privately, they are considered bigots. It doesn't mean anyone is saying they are but it is a very easy way to get ostracized from your peers. They aren't comfortable changing with them (even changing with other girls is hard) but they aren't comfortable objecting.

Once again women come last. And this isn't a shop changing room so the "just opt out" answer really won't work.

Teens should not have to make this decision. But the answer made by adults shouldn't be sacrificing the majority.

This is just one example and a minor one at that. There are plenty of others but I think it's a good demonstration of how women are taught that feeling uncomfortable and having boundaries should come after men's comfort.

@custardo What do you mean by "the odd pervert in the hospital Ward"? You don't really think that is is a rare occurrence that men in co-ed wards abuse women, do you? Talk to someone who works in NHS, please.

This thread is a couple of months old now, but just seems like someone saying give me examples, being given examples, and then saying ‘I don’t care about those other women because it doesn’t affect me’ over and over again.

Kreigsrs what you on about?Great thread

Oh sorry, I see you are specifically referring to custard. Well I just read this whole thread (and read/watched many of the linked articles/videos) as I had not seen the thread before, and I was kind of ignoring El Custardo by the end, as I was learning much more from the numerous other posters. I think I'm saying I agree with you!

Yes, I was talking about custardo.
It’s honestly exhausting reading such wilful ignorance, I don’t blame you for ignoring.

Well it’s not even ignorance is it, when they know exactly what they’re doing.