Trans child suicide stats

[SirVixofVixHall]

Paris Lees stated as fact on BBC Question Time last night, that 45% of trans children in this country had actually attempted suicide. Surely this is not true? Surely (even if this is true, which I very much doubt) stating this goes against all safeguarding guidance for suicidality?
I remember reading that Mermaids quote a similar figure and that this is based on a deeply flawed and tiny study, that is being mis-represented. I am going to complain to the BBC, can anyone link me to the actual study used?

Thanks for the link to the FactChecker account Nosetothesun That seems promising. I'd really like to get some proper scrutiny on this.

The mental health of children and teenagers is a national disgrace, as is the lack of proper support for them and their families.

However, this is the only group of vulnerable children where political pressure groups and self interested adults are given 'permission' to diagnose and recommend treatment. It is an outrageous dereliction of our duty to children that we allow both individuals and groups access to children in this way.

We recognise and protect children with eating disorders, children with an unhealthy interest in radicalised groups, children addicted to gambling sites from online grooming. But for children facing uncertainties about puberty / sex / gender we have given a free pass to random adults to access and influence children via schools or online - zero professional qualifications - just their own personal beliefs.

These may be adults with a sexual fetish (AGP), adults wishing to change society in their own interests, adults with a belief that what happened to them as children is wrong and must not be repeated. They could be adults with either positive or sinister intentions towards children / teenagers.

It is unbelievable that such a vulnerable group of children are not effectively protected - just look at the Scottish guidelines to see how parents can be actively undermined when attempting to support their children.

There is no political mileage in challenging the statistic - all we will do is imbed the incorrect figure. This is just like brexit. There is no point trying to change people’s minds with an evidential analysis and appeals to experts.

I have no idea what works with this, I would opt to leave it as a topic of discussion. It looks terrible to quibble about this much as the statistics may be incorrect.

I would lead with the research which shows that transitioning does not reduce suicidal ideation

I advise you to hold out no hope whatsoever that the BBC fact checker will demolish the suicide claim. It will not be borne.

The results are on their webpage.

Fairly inconclusive as not enough is known as to whether the stonewall study reflects young LGBT or not.

fullfact.org/bbcqt/2018/Mar/22

So they didn't say only 27 were young trans. Thanks Melanin

I wish they'd quoted Dr Williams' analysis because it explains exactly where those figures come from.

And also what do they mean? The translobby uses those stats to push for surgery, blockers and hormones. But there is no evidence that mental health improves post transition. Someone should have asked Lees about that. But of course, that would be unkind, because they'd retreat into fragile mental health like every other TRA does when challenged

Correlation doesn’t equals causation.

I peaked after socialising with a “cross dresser” who I now realise was AGP.

He was depressed.

Yes, he “wanted” access to attractive young women’s spaces, ideally dressed in “silky clothing with my breastforms in”

Yes, he “wanted” to be viewed as a sissy slut young girl.

None of this would have significantly improved his mental health.

If legally the law changed and he now could declare himself a nubile sixteen year old girl called Felicity (hell, throw in some breast implants and a hair transplant and a plastic cunt whilst we’re at it) he’d still look like a weirdbloke and others would react sexually and socially to him in the same way.

Successful men wouldn’t want him sexually. Normal sixteen year old girls wouldn’t want him at their sleepover parties.

Of course, the only difference would be that they wouldn’t say it explicitly, for fear of getting into trouble.

Yes, he’d maybe be ok on the “alternative” /fetish social scene. But that wouldn’t be where he wanted to be.

So he’d be even more fucked up and marginalised.

Thanks melamin

I think that's a fairly conclusive discrediting of that statistic? In as much as it's exposed how vague and insubstantial it is.

Good to see Samaritans link (at last)- I think much more appreciation needed for the seriousness of this discussion and the possible impact referring to suicide ideation may have on vulnerable young people.

I am sick to death of transgender advocates like Paris Lees promoting suicide contagion.

I wonder Tim from R4 more or less would take this up?

They won't do any proper assessment. They're in thrall, the BBC is utterly in thrall to transadvocacy.

I thought the argument for children was that they were born in the wrong body.

Using suicide stats seems to emphasise that these children are actually mentally ill. I’m not at all sure that’s what the Trans Rights movement wants to promote.

The question is why these children have suicidal thoughts - and how it compares with child suicide and self harm stats in general.

Asking the question is considered conversion therapy and now illegal in some countries.

Earlier this month, Paris Lees said:
A quick Google will tell you that I’ve been using my voice this past year to call for an urgent public debate about who and what is causing so many trans kids to feel suicidal, not a change in the law.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/01/paris-lees-my-interview-with-nick-robinson-highlights-everything-wrong-with-debate-about-trans-people/

If Paris stopped shouting 'bigot' at feminists, and actually engaged with us, Paris would know that we'd like to find the answer to that as well. Unquestioning affirmation is part of the problem, though, so it's clear that Paris doesn't really want to know why these young people feel suicidal.

Yes rowdywoman I agree absolutely . Well I agree with all the posts . It has become a completely mad situation, where confused
children are being used to fuel an adult agenda , in a totally irresponsible way .

What worries me is that if you read the article linked in the thread "The Disappearance of Desire" towards the end of the article the author makes the case that given the recent trend of promoting a paticular trans agenda, it is in danger of attracting dissaffected and struggling teenagers as it is the current modern idiom of expressing the feelings of alienation many teenagers face.

If this is the case it is in danger of conflating general suicide attempts amongst children with trans children. If that is correct and the trans agenda is wrong we risk exposing already vulnerable young people to irreversible and life changing medical procedures, and simply put the science is nowhere near in on this yet.

I don't think you even need to be a TERF to at least want to consider caution on this issue. If you go all in with the trans lobby at this stage you are essentially saying you are comfortable with using an entire generation of young people as an experimental case study, which if you actually tried to do so in a clinical setting you'd be knocked upside the head by god knows how many medical ethics committees it would make your head spin.

“Asking the question is considered conversion therapy and now illegal in some countries.”

All the more important to ask that question now, in this country, where it is still legal to do so, surely?

I agree with you Tanith

The absolute closing down of true debate on this is terrifying . DH is part Jewish , he is very disturbed by this totalitarianism .

Do we know how many kids with anorexia attempt suicide by comparison (or die because if the illness)? Or how many teenagers with depression?

I was in hospital aged about thirteen and one night a girl was bought in having made an attempt at suicide. It turned out her best friend was brought in that night too for the same reason. i don't want to minimise what some people go through with depression and suicidal ideation at all but both those girls made very half-hearted attempts at suicide. They were brought in for the night purely for observation. Both were up and about the next day and both were smiling and chatting and laughing together the next day, sitting on the bed opposite me.

Now that doesn't mean they hadn't both been in distress and of course some people with depression can appear happy for short periods of time. But even then I was aware that they had on some level egged eachother on, that they were on some level enjoying the drama of what they'd done (I feel awful even writing that) and that they had minor issues in their lives which lots of teens shared.

Suicide is contagious. Lots of teens do attempt it for very minor reasons - that doesn't in any way take away from the fact that some attempt it for much more serious reasons and it is of course utterly tragic when people succeed. But attempts are very often not serious and shouldn't even always be given that much weight. I'm sure any A&E staff can attest to that. Using these statistics to manipulate people is appalling.

I think there is a serious need to focus on the frequency that prominent TRA's / transgender role models / services etc speak of suicide ideation and young people.
Consideration needs to be given to the possible impact this may actually have on the vulnerable young people that they claim to advocate for.