Pregnant trans men Guardian article

[Todayissunny]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/mar/22/story-one-mans-pregnancy-trans-jason-barker

I just find this so confusing....
It tells me that we should just be able to live how we want to. We should absolutely not be defined by gender.

Or am I just really, really old fashioned that this is just absolutely crazy.

www.tht.org.uk/sexual-health/Sex,-reproduction-and-gender/Trans-women/HIV-and-STIs

www.nhs.uk/conditions/sexually-transmitted-infections-stis/

People need to take care of their health and they also need to take care of their sexual health, especially if they are active.

Having an STI is not shameful. It can happen to anyone. However, sex is more important than gender when it comes to a successful outcome.

Regarding heart attacks and sex differences is vitally important and in no way transphobic.

When men use terms like 'love' and 'pet', as feminists, we recognise it for the belittling misogyny it is. When women do it to other women, I consider how much of that misogyny they've internalised, how by aping their oppressors, they show their level of submission to the patriarchy''.

Have you considered the possibility I thought you were a bloke.

Do women do the 'shit work' because we're biologically predisposed to it, or do we do the 'shit work' because we are oppressed by men?

It's like arguing with those people who insist that the world started 6000 years ago. And that men (never women) walked with dinosaurs

@Elendon. The people who believe the world began 6000 years ago also believe that men and women have biological innate gender identities. They argue that it strains the humanity of both men and women if we act contrary to our gender roles.

Someone mentioned brains. My brain is as female as the rest of my bodily organs (ovaries, uterus, heart, skin, liver etc etc) because it developed as they did under the influence of female hormones as a result of my XX chromosome configuration.
Funny that I do Maths, have a good sense of spatial awareness and prefer thrillers to romance. But that's a lady brain for you - unpredictable.

I suspect others who are catching up have recognized Stillscreaming's tell. Anything that is disagreeable is declared to be unknown and unknowable despite of overwhelming evidence.
It was amusing until they started lying to defame another, instead of to self promote.

sexnotgender.com/gender-identity-legislation-and-the-erosion-of-sex-based-legal-protections-for-females/

A link to the 2011 letter can be found here I think?

Stillscreaming can you link to your materials?

The ones who do have access to free contraception and abortion, are financially independant, who are educated and have feminist leanings; why are they still doing as much of the shit work as more vulnerable women.
Isn't this another of the many unknowns that you object to being stated as fact?
We can't know if these women define their work as shit, nor if they are the only ones on diaper duty.

her boys were taught to pee sitting down

Sorry missed this earlier - why would anyone do this when men can wee so efficiently standing up?

It's an advantage in a culture where it's not socially acceptable to display your bottom in public, and also explains why women tend to wear skirts in societies that don't have access to toilets.

you know, you can wee standing up, you just need to take your pyjama trousers off and be in a field at night.

come now, I can't be the only one.....

This is a lie. It is defamation and I am going to report your post..

I'm sure that anyone who wants to can google Cathy Brennan's name for themselves. I'd link to some of her stuff but that would be taken down.

It's also a little disingenuous to claim to be so offended by my reference to Cathy Brennan, that's you report it but then reproduce it in full in your own post. I'm sure you have your own reasons.

Your own habit of name calling when someone doesn't agree with you, bewilderbeast, is quite telling and indicative of your awareness of what civilised conversation is.

As I said, there are sections of trans rights supporters on who behave appallingly. There are also women on Mumsnet who have called me a man, repeatedly used male pronouns for me and likened my behaviour to a sex offenders, just because I disagree with them. Rude and nasty behaviour isn't the soul preserve of one side. Consider being the change you want to see, stop the name calling.

Have you considered the possibility I thought you were a bloke.

No, I think that's a petty little put down to just to justify your misogynistic behaviour. Misogynists often do that too.

I do wonder about the place this behaviour comes from. I wonder why anyone would feel so offended that some women have different ideas to them. I wonder about the need to constantly hammer down a different view. If you're confident that you're correct in your reasoning, why behave like this when you're challenged.

Meta-examination of all studies done to discover difference in male and female brains have not detected ANY difference that would allow a researcher to definitely say one brain is male and the other is female.

That's true but it's not the whole story. The best comparison that I can come up with is hight, there are no male or female hights, although men tend to be taller than women but I can't shout out 6'1" and expect you to know, definitively, that I'm talking about a man. So while I can't claim that there are specific brain differences that are unique and ubiquitous to either sex or gender, I can say that male brains tend in one direction and women's brains tend in another.

The same is true of most gendered things, I can think of nothing that I can say is absolutely common to all women, we find outliers and exceptions everywhere.

Here's a report of a study that has a larger than normal sample size, showing physical brains differences. It also touches to how hormones might impact brains function, in relation to menopausal women:

www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. All anyone making claims about innate gender has been able to offer up is either or sophistry. Women have every reason on earth to push back against this assertion of gendered brains, because we KNOW it will be used against us.

I keep not claiming that I have any proof that gender is innate. What I keep saying this that there is no proof that all gendered behaviour is a result of outside influence ie that gender is a social construct. Saying that something isn't black, doesn't means that I'm claiming it's white.

I can't see why gendered brains are more intrinsically oppress-able than sexed brains or brains that have adapted to cultural constraints.

The offence is that ANYONE has sexist ideas,

Noticing difference isn't sexist, making value judgements about those differences is sexist. I really celebrate the things mark women out as different to men, I think that there're really positive improvements. I really admire women who are able to put their egos in their pockets and do the shit work, just so it gets done and I'd much rather spend time with one, than with an alpha male type.

I'd like to see the value of the shit work recognised. Rearing children, caring for the elderly and keeping a home safe is just as valuable as pissing around in an office. The 'shit' isn't in the work itself, it's in its lack of recognition.

I can think of nothing that I can say is absolutely common to all women

I can. Female reproductive biology.

I really admire women who are able to put their egos in their pockets and do the shit work, just so it gets done and I'd much rather spend time with one, than with an alpha male type.

What is this ‘shit work’ you keep talking about? Do you think men who spent hours down coal mines weren’t doing ‘shit work’? Do you think they had a choice?

pissing around in an office.

So now I feel bad about all the time I spend pissing around in an office while my husband is at home. (I mean he pisses around in an office too, but apparently I’m particularly suited to ‘shit work’).

Stillscreaming, I expected my post quoting your defamation to be removed also.

I choose to take the advice of Maya Angelou when people like you show me who they are. Accusing a woman of being nasty and vile for reporting death threats against her and her children is more than enough for me.

I have a feeling my post might get buried in the wider discussion that's opened up in this thread, but focusing on the initial theme of the thread, I've just watched a fantastic video by Penny White on You Tube 'Why I Became An Evil TERF' (sorry, I have no idea how to upload).

This was over two years ago, which reminds me how long this discussion has been going on and I'm so pleased it's being blown up by Mumsnet right now.

I love the whole video, but in particular a couple of sentences struck home and encapsulated what's going on here: she's talking about trans demands to speak of 'pregnant people' rather than women, to not deny all the 'men' who've given birth.

And she describes it as being the #alllivesmatter for reproductive rights. And that to do so erases an axis of oppression.

This is such a succinct and important way of putting it. Many people are horrified when some try to appropriate #blacklivesmatter and do whataboutery for 'all lives'.

Female penises, pregnant 'men', transwomen rights - it's the same thing that's going on with biological sex matters.

Do you think men who spent hours down coal mines weren’t doing ‘shit work’? Do you think they had a choice?

WATM??

Accusing a woman of being nasty and vile for reporting death threats against her and her children is more than enough for me.

If she got any death threats, she was absolutely right to report them. I'm accusing her of being nasty and vile for being nasty and vile.

The vileness doesn't make the death threats acceptable and the death threats don't make her vileness to others acceptable.