Interesting school toilets story

[FlorenceLyons]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-43462823

Interesting on a number of levels, I think. The school had originally said a transgender child (a boy identifying as a girl) couldn't use the girls' toilets 'out of respect' - presumably for the girls.

An organisation called Transpire then got involved. Their spokesperson is quoted as saying "I find it quite amazing some schools are branding it respect when in fact it is segregation ... It's about giving people the opportunity to use the toilet they are comfortable with, not what the school is comfortable with."

The school capitulated, with the head saying "because of what the school stands for and the rights written into equality law, the school made the decision to allow transgender students to use a toilet that matches their identified gender".

This begs so many questions, doesn't it? Why is 'respect' being posited as the opposite of 'segregation'? Surely segregation by sex is partly about respecting the needs of people, particularly women, to single-sex spaces? Why does the comfort of one child trump the comfort of many children? And why is equality law being used to justify this, when we know it says no such thing?

I don’t want to be a pedant but the concept of “reasonable adjustments” in the Act only applies to the protected characteristic of disability - it has no apllication in relation to gender reassignment.

Arguably it should though.

Hmm, I disagree. IMO if the Act was rewritten to say something along the lines of ‘You have to make reasonable adjustments for people going through the process of gender reassignment so that they can be treated as if they are of the gender that they want to obtain’ that would go a lot further in favour of trans people than the current law.

The Act as currently written speaks of discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment. This means that it is unlawful to eg fire someone because they announce they are going to change gender. However, my view is that it would not force an employer to allow a transwoman to use women’s bathrooms rather than a unisex toilet prior to obtaining a GRC (at which point they legally ‘become a woman’).

You would be going from a negative prohibition to a wider positive duty.

I think also people would be surprised at how far the courts expect employers to go in the name of reasonable adjustments. I’m not saying that I disagree with the judgments that I have seen, but when I speak to non-lawyers I get the feeling that they have a completely different (and more limited) Interpretation of reasonableness compared to the courts.

Speedy85

That is what was alluding to, that sometimes it can be a grey area where judges can make rulings that allow this. Perhaps what we need to to be pushing the sex is a protected characteristic and reasonableness may involve the trans child using either a gender neutral toilet or the disabled toilet? This is for lawyers to fight out, but we need parents to fight, using harassment laws to protect against tra's. The more this happens the easier it's going to be to change the law and our daughter's are going to be the ones who suffer. It's a total disgrace!

‘All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others’

George Orwell

Good idea GirlScout72, you've just prompted me to email our Police Commissioner to ask how perps are recorded re sex or gender.

I really hope the parents will fight this. It is utterly unfair. There are protections under SEX in the law and all those girls in the school deserve those protections. Provision could be made for the trans student and the girls could be left alone.

"Mr Osborn said King Edmund School believes 'everyone has the right to feel comfortable' in order to "achieve the very best they can"."

Everyone except the girls that is....

Have you seen Sgt Denham's shocking sexism? mobile.twitter.com/confirmedturf/status/976140239398871040

It is amazing this sort of thing is ok if you just magically say you are trans and then you can go into schools to lecture kids on gender.

Please let's do something ladies.

So many of you have posted very informatively, aspects in relation to law, ofsted, basic safeguarding and the distortion of all of these by trans activists (in the police force!)

I've screen grabbed the school's contact list.

I'd suggest calling Mr Marc Feeley or naming him in an email to [email protected]
Over safeguarding issues.

I'm sending an email saying I live locally and heard about their decision and the pressures put on them by authorities. Ofsted would possibly fail the school for allowing males to use the girls bathroom space, and ask have they have completed a full impact assessment which under the FOI act they are obliged to provide within 20 days.

(Not exact wording obvs)

Perhaps what we need to to be pushing the sex is a protected characteristic and reasonableness may involve the trans child using either a gender neutral toilet or the disabled toilet?

That's what I was thinking. Or a single cubicle staff toilet. Not that they would be able to force women to share more easily. Same applies in the workplace. And I don't think any of this should apply to someone who has never had a medical diagnosis of sex (gender) dysphoria.

None of this has yet to be properly tested in court. At some point, surely someone has to.

And I am betting that, when weighing the rights of one trans student against the rights of all girl students, the courts will go for proportionality - a third space must be found for the trans student and the girls must not lose their right to bodily privacy.

There's a helpful link in this tweet. Transgender organisations are misleading schools on the law. twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/976130395086475264

The 15 year old girl who ids as a boy at my DDs' school had to use a staff toilet and now the school have created a toilet for any sex to use - which is labeled gender neutral. Although, funnily enough, I don't suppose their parents are pushing for their child to use the boys' toilets. I'm pleased a 'gender neutral' toilet has been created so they'll already have somewhere to direct any male that ids as a girl.

Just as we're moving towards mixed sex toilets, these countries are finding them a barrier for girls' education. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/single-sex-toilets-unesco-un-international-womens-day-period-a8244776.html

I agree Lang. Proportionality means a third space.
Where same-sex provision is provided on the basis of differences between female and male sexed bodies (with sex being a protected characteristic as well as gender reassignment), placing someone with a male sexed body in the provision for people with female sexed bodies ( or vice versa) undermines the entire purpose of that provision.
I have worked in a 100s of schools and I think every single 1 would support this view if they had enough balanced information to make informed decisions

Pancake "I also have a friend who is a cool designer working in a cool company who did unisex loos. After 3 months they begged the HR dept to create male/female toilets."

Did they get their wish?

I've tweeted the school about this issue, the rules they're ignoring and their responsiblity to the girls involved, but their account is protected so I'm not sure if they'll see them.

On a slight tangent I've just written to my police commissioner about how they are recording data for crimes, by gender or by sex

I would be really interested to find out what they say - please report back!

"“It is not a requirement - or best practice - to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.”"

How can this even be a thing? It's beyond me. They must obviously have thought about writing this. And the only reason I can think of is that they fear some parents will make a fuss. That implies they intentionally want to mislead parents. No words.

A school in Washington State (US) has just withdrawn it's sex ed program after numerous parents and a science teacher complained about the heavy slant towards gender ideology.

www.sequimgazette.com/news/sexual-health-education-program-suspended-at-sequim-schools/

Bagel - the male / female loos were reinstated.
Not sure what discussions went on there.. But must quiz them next time see them.

I'm not sure if it's already been posted here but I've seen one lady saying that her 11 year old daughter was forced to undress in front of a transgender girl and shower in front of him while she played with her erect penis! That is something which could affect the daughter for the rest of her life.

kyan ive seen that too. And the mp being told that on witterbimpmued it would have been ok with consent. And has skirted round naming the problem which is a BOY did it to a GIRL.

The sex of the victim and perp are not allowed to be discussed

It's toilets. Girls need their own toilets and these arseholes going round telling people other wise are just showing the favt they are men bevause they have no clue about how young girls will be dealing with periods and need that privacy.

How do people get smart enough to run schools but not smart enough to know about biology or to seek actual legal advice from people who don't have an agenda.

These people are teaching? How do you teach how pregnancy happens ffs

On Twitter

Implied

I'm finding a lot of misunderstanding about what it means to be trans...not all have gender dysphoria, those who don't have it, have no intention of changing their body, and they don't have to be gay.

The men who support trans, think that girls should just get over their prejudices and irrational feelings! I guess they don't have daughters or like the idea of being able to watch them naked, themselves.

I'm finding a lot of misunderstanding about what it means to be trans...not all have gender dysphoria, those who don't have it, have no intention of changing their body, and they don't have to be gay.

This is exactly what I don't get.

greenyblue

Do you mean you don't get the two types of transwomen? Or you don't get why other people don't get it (if you see what I mean)?

If it's the former, this is a good thread.

If you read down a few posts, it's explained.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me