I just discovered John Maclean

[BarrackerBarmer]

Makeup artist - could pass aesthetically as a woman better than Paris Lees et al.

Isn't transgender.
States categorically that he is a man.
I'm not sure this is even drag for him.
It's just self-expression.
Yes, he's eccentric, but seems to have a decent grip on sex vs gender, and oppression and stereotypes.

The TRAs must hate this. He's fascinating.

daisy exactly. Why is it that women are getting the shit for this? Why are we the ones - always - who have to move over and make more space for others?

This constant bleating about being attacked really gets on my nerves.

Twice lately I've had an Agp tim in my bathroom. Both dressed in ridiculous clothing, both six foot plus, both with bulging muscles. Nobody is attacking them. Men don't attack them because it's the social equivalent of picking on the gay boy at school.

Exactly, they paint themselves as dainty, delicate and vulnerable when they have far less to fear.

It's been a long day. All I can manage is to chortle at custardo's diehard error and envy those cheekbones....

Having seen the way this thread has gone I feel rather sorry for John McLean. He seems from his Youtube presence to be eccentric and harmless whose role model is a 1950s Scottish debutante (and why not?)

It is a pity the thread turned into a diatribe about how hard it is to be trans followed by how hard it is to be a woman- all of which is largely irrelevant to the fabulousness of John McLean.

John McLean is not claiming to be a woman. I hope the armchair psychologists and psychiatrists are not suggesting that he is AGP.
Because if so it is extremely hypocritical to say anyone can wear what they want/ men can wear dresses and make up and then shout "AGP" when they do.

Because if so it is extremely hypocritical to say anyone can wear what they want/ men can wear dresses and make up and then shout "AGP" when they do.

That's missing the point lass. No one should be constrained by what they wear.

But men who are AGP are aroused by what they wear, precisely because those clothes are deemed female.

If clothes weren't so strongly tired to 'men's' and 'women's' , they wouldn't want to wear them.

It's the attitude that the subordination of women is a turn on that makes those clothes the outward expression of that subordination.

They don't wear them because they are naturally drawn to softer fabrics and brighter colours.

No I am not missing the point. You (general you) cannot say on the one hand- wear what you want and then when some one does accuse them of being a sexual feitishist.

Yes you can. Men and women wearing what they like, irrespective of whether it is masculine or feminine is a function of reducing gender stereotypes.

A man wearing women's clothing and claiming he is a woman because he fetishises women, is endorsing gender stereotypes.

The motivation makes them completely different.

John McLean is not claiming to be a woman. Like the comedian Andrew O'Neill , who does not claim to be woman , he likes wearing make- up and dresses. You (general you) cannot decide they don't wear them because they are naturally drawn to softer fabrics and brighter colours.

This thread went off- track very quickly but I would be very disappointed if any armchair psychiatrists decide they will diagnose men like McClean or O'Neill in this way.

lass you are absolutely missing the point. No one is saying John McLean shouldn't wear dresses or that he claims to be a woman - they are supporting his right to wear whatever he likes.

What they are attacking is the people who claim to be trans but are actually just pervs. (NOTE: not all trans people.)

Lass if you look at what we actually posted, most of us were rather delighted by someone called John, who wore what they liked, including makeup, without feeling the need to call himself a woman. I haven't seen anyone accuse John of being AGP, either.

LassWiADelicateAir

For what it's worth, I wasnt actually talking about John.

I was just addressing the comment you made about feminists saying men can wear female clothes and then complaining when they do.

Explaining the difference.

John has obviously thought long and hard about why they were being treated differently and has reached the right conclusion.

Perhaps I can explain it better by saying that some TIMs, like AGPs, aren't so much wearing female clothing because they like them, they're wearing them to become the thing that they are aroused by.

If every woman everywhere suddenly started to wear an eyepatch, for instance, they would wear that.

It's about acquiring their personal perception of what women are.

And, certainly in the case of AGPs, it's a demeaning perception, relying not just on stereotypes, but relying on the most damaging stereotypes.

Gender nonconforming it isn't.

It might look, from the outside, as though there is a contradiction, because of the gender busting viewpoint of feminists. But there really isn't.

Gosh, he’s lovely. I could listen to him for ages.

Thank goodness someone stepped in to stop this ArcheryAnnie transfobic ignorance from spreading. Please, users that had not put much thought into this topic, do inform yourselves further if you want to form an opinion on it any further.

ArcheryAnnie is painting a picture about transwomen like they are these machomen all their lifes until one day, magically, something changes (I guess she is thinking right before deciding on surgery or hormones) and suddenly they want to become women. It's ridiculous.

A vast majority of transwomen have identified as women since they acquire the slightest bit of self consciousness, and therefore FEEL, behave, speak and try to appear femininely ALL THEIR LIVES. I want to stress this. The hatred this brings upon them is the reason behind the claim of being the most oppressed. They are killed for this, beaten, forced to change it, they are bloody rehabilitated into being what they are not, do you understand this?

I don't know if ArcheryAnnie and BarrackerBarmer are simply ignorant of what being trans is or if they actively hate trans people, but kindly do not accept their view on this matter without researching on your own.

They are killed for this, beaten, forced to change it, they are bloody rehabilitated into being what they are not, do you understand this?

There are more trans murderers than there are murders.

Where are your stats coming from?

and therefore FEEL, behave, speak and try to appear femininely ALL THEIR LIVES.

I have never seen a woman say this sort of thing in the second pic. What is feminine about this?

Just a heads up to anyone that this thread is over six months old. Marovi, there are many active conversations you can join. That would be better than dragging up something from the archive. Things move on

Although its interesting to have an old thread bumped to see how much more freely poster could express themselves. Also, to see how free the ploppers felt to come and tell us all off for being mean for not centring their experiences.

Try to imagine if everybody treated you as a gender you weren't, and you had to dress in clothes that felt wrong and talk with a voice that felt wrong and teach yourself how to act like something you weren't.

Oh how precious! As if that wasn't the every day reality of a huge proportion - maybe even the majority - of female humans, of girls and women.

Just a heads up to anyone that this thread is over six months old. Marovi, there are many active conversations you can join. That would be better than dragging up something from the archive.

I am well aware of that, I thought it was a great thread to bump.

Because there are loads of pieces of evidence to the contrary.

behave, speak and try to appear femininely ALL THEIR LIVES.

Not all of them do, many of them want to kill people. Mainly women.

Old thread but cool person!

Shon Faye - THIS is a ‘man in make up’ worthy of a national press interview!

I haven't worn makeup in years, but have just spent the last half-hour watching John's channel where he starts from scratch and creates various looks. Totally fascinating! And I could happily listen to his voice all day.