I just discovered John Maclean

[BarrackerBarmer]

Makeup artist - could pass aesthetically as a woman better than Paris Lees et al.

Isn't transgender.
States categorically that he is a man.
I'm not sure this is even drag for him.
It's just self-expression.
Yes, he's eccentric, but seems to have a decent grip on sex vs gender, and oppression and stereotypes.

The TRAs must hate this. He's fascinating.

Try to imagine if everybody treated you as a gender you weren't

Wouldn’t it be fucking marvellous! Imagine being treated like a man. Not being wolf whistled at/cat called to in the street. Not being groped in public, Not having the size of your tits remarked on, being raped/sexually assaulted as a little girl ( because of your sex), not being told you can’t have an abortion but have to have a forced pregnancy and birth, because you live in NI and have no rights to your own body. Not being brought up to believe you must defer to men’s opinions and ‘rights’. Not being constantly manspained to because you’re now a widow so ‘need’ to be told how you should be doing the things you’ve always done, because your husband is dead. Etc etc. It would be fucking marvellous if I had been treated as the opposite sex for the last 50yrs.

I actually thought I was at a stage in my life where it had more or less stopped, until I lost my husband and then realised that the only reason I didn’t have so many men tell me how I should be running my life, home, choice of car and even how I run my business, was because they assumed my husband would have been doing that. FFS!

I'm very angry, but I've tried to be more respectful here than you were. Please make an effort to learn more about trans people.

@MsUrsula how are you being "respectful" when you've made your own assumptions about me, and the other women on these boards?

Bet you a dollar that I've spent longer questioning my gender identity than you have.

Bet you another dollar that there's a lot of women here who could say the same.

I'll repeat here what i said recently on another thread about my own gender identity. I have thought about this very carefully over many decades - the language has changed in the meantime, but it's something I've thought about my whole life, as I've known many other gender nonconforming people and have been in LGBT+ circles my whole life. I used a male name as a small child, and I have wondered over the years about eventually transitioning, though I did not think of it in words like that at the time.

And after many years of considering it, deeply, I have come to the conclusion that I have absolutely no innate gender identity at all. I don't "know" my gender, because I don't have one. I'm a woman because this body that I walk around in is a woman's body. If my consciousness had been born into a baby boy's body, I'd be a man. That's all there is to it. And this isn't some special category - after years of talking to friends (gay and straight, gender nonconforming and not) I find this is a very common condition, not special at all.

Furthermore to that, I have come to believe gender is a social construct and a total crock of shit, which isn't helpful to anyone but which actively oppresses women.

Trans women do not grow up swimming in male privilege and then whine when it's taken away.

You were born with male privilege, you grew up with male privilege. The fact that you don't even notice it amply illustrates my original point.

Try to imagine if everybody treated you as a gender you weren't, and you had to dress in clothes that felt wrong and talk with a voice that felt wrong and teach yourself how to act like something you weren't.

I don't have to imagine. That was my childhood, and the childhood of a lot of other women.

Maleness isn't a privilege when it's forced on you

If you truly believe this, then you don't understand how privilege works. Which is exactly what I'd expect from someone with privilege. Educate yourself.

We are routinely beaten or killed, and all too often the perpetrators walk away scot-free.

You really don't know anything (or care anything) about women's lives, do you? Because if you did, you'd understand how this is the constant reality of women's experience.

i thought this thread was a die hard reference

I came in here pleading for some tolerance and understanding, and in response some of you really doubled down on the hate and transphobia. I hope that you raise kids who are more open-minded and compassionate than you are.

Re: 'routinely beaten or killed' remark.

Here's the thing MsUrsula, you are actually telling this to women who have possibly been raped/assaulted/endured DV/harassment etc all their lives.

All you have to do is have a read through the MN threads (AIBU, Chat, Relationships, FC etc). Women have been/are being abused all the time.

Please take the time and do some research. I'm willing to bet every woman on these threads has at some point in their lives dealt with abuse.

Maybe it's time to start asking them about their lives and their experiences rather than just telling them to centre you as the only victim. Respect goes both ways.

msursula first, I’m sorry you’ve suffered. That sucks.

But just because you suffer from prejudice doesn’t take away your other privileges.

eg I suffer as a woman because men have male privilege. But I am white, so I don’t suffer from racial prejudice in the UK. I’m also heterosexual so i don’t suffer from homophobia. And I’m skinny so I don’t get shit for being fat.

That doesn’t stop the fact that I grew up being looked down on for being a woman.

The fact is, you grew up being told you were strong, smart, independent etc. People automatically assumed you could do stuff based on your sex. Women are brought up to doubt their abilities at every turn.

You might reject the label of ‘man’; you might have felt you don’t belong in that category, but it does not take away from the fact that you grew up being told how wonderful and amazing you are, while your sisters/girl friends were told to be careful, to not ruin their clothes, to sit still, to be quiet.

No one is saying trans people don’t suffer. A lot of men suffer from racism homophobia and other things. It doesn’t take away their male privilege however.

We are routinely beaten or killed, and all too often the perpetrators walk away scot-free

You've a fucking nerve really trying to bullshit people like this. You must think people are stupid.

TWO women per WEEK are killed in the uk.

SIX tims have been killed in the last ten years, one was killed by another fucking tim! Go and educate yourself instead of parroting these stupid lies. They've been exposed as lies numerous times.

transcrimeuk.com

womanmeanssomething.com/violencedatabase/

There is no such thing as a trans woman. They are just deluded men.

You're angry? Tough tooty.

Once again disagreement and women talking about their lived experiences is framed as 'hate' and 'transphobia.

Please someone tell me how this movement is any different from men's rights activism?

damn because men are privileged and women aren’t. Just because trans people are also disconnected against doesn’t erase women’s disadvantages and need for safe spaces.

and in response some of you really doubled down on the hate and transphobia

Where is the "hate and transphobia" @MsUrsula ? Exactly where? Or are you just going to throw around baseless accusations, rather than deal with any of the points that women have spent time and energy on in replying to you?

Women expressing a valid opinions, verifiable facts and legitimate concerns = transphobia.

Sloppy, very sloppy.

Everything’s a phobia now isn’t it?

Funny how all these men who think they are women never manage to let go of their (false) male entitlement to lecture women.

Simply being an actual human female is bloody transphobic these days.

I came in here pleading for some tolerance and understanding, and in response some of you really doubled down on the hate and transphobia. I hope that you raise kids who are more open-minded and compassionate than you are.

No. You came in here and demanded that women centre trans people when they are discussing the inequality they live with. Why do you need us to do this? Why do you expect us to drop what we are talking about and think about you instead?

Because women here did not doff their caps and immediately comply with your demands, you became enraged and started making accusations. This is narcissistic rage borne of your male entitlement and your misogynistic inability to see women as full human beings with rights and priorities that centre themselves and not you.

I am here to be pro-woman. I am here to support women's need for same sex services and spaces. The same services and spaces I have supported and campaigned for over thirty years. That you suddenly decide to insert yourself into this conversation is irrelevant to me. Women have the same needs whether you throw a tantrum or not.

I was reading some of ursula post very sympathetically and thinking 'yep ive felt that its awful...i know a liitle bit of how they feel there'

But apparently thats hateful and transphobic

Nice to know

We are routinely beaten or killed, and all too often the perpetrators walk away scot-free.

You wanted to be a woman. Welcome to gender. This is what it is. You aren't special.

Archery excellent posts.

If you are a woman you are treated as if you are stupid. If you are are physically an even slightly unattractive woman you are either ignored or treated with disgust.

It is sad how little idea MsUrsula has about the experience of being a born woman, especially as she says she is now a woman.

When I read her post I immediately assumed it was a joke, read it a few times more and realised she might be completely serious.

I wonder in what way she considers herself a woman given that she displayed a mind boggling lack of understanding of women's lived experience, evidence of which is everywhere.

It reads like a white person who hates being pale going to get a deep fake tan then lecturing others on how he has it harder than black people and definitely doesn't have white privilege.

No interest in truth or the world beyond me, me, me.

@MsUrsula I am very sorry you are angry. I’m really sorry for everything you have experienced that this debate makes you feel like we’re all on opposite sides. We don’t have to be.

Try to imagine if everybody treated you as a gender you weren't, and you had to dress in clothes that felt wrong and talk with a voice that felt wrong and teach yourself how to act like something you weren't. Maleness isn't a privilege when it's forced on you, and it doesn't feel right.

Maleness is not a privilege to people who reject societal expectations of masculinity, this is true. Then it is oppressive. But it’s the societal expectations that are the issue, surely?

Women feel this all the time. What society expects of us is bullshit, and it’s rooted in biology.

Gender can be a feeling - I am happy for people who transition and can finally live “as themselves” and feel more true to their nature/soul. But gender does not trump biology. Sex is still important. Women are oppressed by biology. Trans people are oppressed by biology in a different way.

I personally cannot comment on your experience of the world because I am not trans. But neither am I “cis”. I am a woman in body. But I do not “feel” like a woman, I just am. I have no idea what it feels like not to be a “woman”, or to be a man. I only know what it feels like to be me. In the same way, with the greatest of respect, that’s all you know too.

Trans women are murdered. Biological women are murdered.
Often, in both cases, it’s because they’re in unsafe situations due to domestic abuse or sex work or poverty or mental health issues. Mostly people are murdered by people they know. In the case in the news of Naomi Hersi it’s pretty likely she was murdered not because she was trans but because she was in an unsafe situation with a violent man.

Women just don’t want it to be easier for violent men to hurt them. THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT TRANS = VIOLENT MAN. It is to say that when you allow men to redefine the word “woman” without checks and balances, it will be easier for horrible people to do horrible things.

It always amazes me just how unaware TIMs are of what women's lives are actually like. So many of them have this image of an entirely fantasy woman who floats through life preening and enjoying the her place in society, with no frustration at the gendered expectations, no desire to be free/be someone else, no watching the boys and men around her being treated differently and feeling jealous and angry.

MsUrsula How dare you! How damn well dare you. When you have been through all we as women have had to endure due to our biology then you can come here and complain.

I had a wonderful marriage and have beautiful grown up children and now grandchildren. The hell I and many, many other women to bring forth the next generation is something you will never comprehend. Added to pregnancy and resulting birth issues I suffered worsening PMS after each birth. Just remember one thing, a woman brought you into the world for you to then whinge at other women.

Someone upthread mentioned becoming a widow. When my husband died no one will ever understand how it was for me. To add insult to injury men made a bad situation worse. Just as well for me I'm tough as old boots and wouldn't allow that situation to continue for long, now all women have that strength or option.

You will never understand what it is to have the true essence of being a woman - never! Starting periods and female puberty TTC, pregnancy, birth, breast feeding, then a lifetime of PMS. Menopause that makes life hell. How you can come here crying for understanding when not a man alive (I include my lovely late husband in that) could possibly understand what it means to be a woman. Women are held accountable for contraception, have to go through the turmoil and emotional hell if an abortion is required and it is by far women who are (literally) left holding the baby if a man has his fun then doesn't want the responsibility of that.

You want pity for a choice you made? Well one thing is for sure, you won't find it in a group of women who have suffered for their sex!

This post full of things we have to deal with daily yet I haven't even touched on financial inequality or sexual harassment or any of the other issues women have to face.

You want sympathy? Go to Angels where you can all stroke each others ego's and whinge about women being meanies who won't let the men in to play with their toys!

Dailydrip. Thank you for expressing so well what a lot of us can't.

And what nosquirrels said