Is there a deeper picture that we are afraid to talk about?

[speakout]

I have deep feminist views.But trying to understand the taboo surrounding sex differences.
I have been mulling over this issue in the past few weeks. My 17 yo DD is going through University application atm, hoping to do child nursing, but considering adult nursing too. So in the past month she has been attending interviews at different Universities for her courses. Often all day events, lots of group stuff, role play etc, usually involving 60 or so potential students at a time.
So in the past month over 4 Universities and meeting 200 fellow potential students she has met 4 males.
In her last interview for child nursing ( just been offered a place :)) there were zero males in a bunch of 70 potential students.
Can someone please help me understand this.

OP, don't you think that being raised by a '1950s housewife' who claimes her boy and girl child were innately very different will have had a significant effect on your DD and her innate sense of her value and choices as a woman?

Bertrand Russel
I suppose it’s possible that there are brain differences,

I came across interesting research examining stress hormones released by babies, that found baby boys to be more sensitive to maternal stress and seperation from their mother than baby girls, sort of going back on the "boys are tougher than girls" narrative.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201701/be-worried-about-boys-especially-baby-boys

Agree Certain. I have found this board to be the most supportive of SAHMing personally.

Yes- but also men have to prove themselves to survive in a patriarchal society. It works both ways, which is why feminists say that feminism benefits men as well as women

So true. I know of a couple of men who have put themselves under an extreme amount of stress and pressure to earn a sufficient a salary to support a stay at home wife and their children. Both men stated they would prefer more equal roles - both partners earning and taking equal caring responsibility. They wouldn’t then work themselves into the ground and they’d get to be more involved with their kids. Interestingly neither wife wanted the re-balance preferring not to work outside the home at all. I guess that’s a disparity in goals that they needed to sort at the outset but I think looking wider, it demonstrates how men lose out too.

its surely about money isnt it? Nursing is comparatively underpaid and hence less attractive to young men who have been bought up and socialised ti bekieve they deserver better aka more. Only girls are socialised to believe you do some jobs becasue you care, not because of financial reward.

can't be an accountant

grrrr autocorrect

I'm trying to say that I think being an accountant and putting your child in full time childcare or choosing to stay at home and look after your child are both rational responses to wanting the best for your child.

This is a really interesting thread.

I’m a SAHM and do probably 90% of the housework. The teenagers do about 9% and DH does 1% because he works 60-70hr weeks. This isn’t because I am biologically programmed to be better at housework (I’m actually shit at it) but I have almost no earning potential and he earns ze big bucks. I always worked full time up until a massive breakdown two years ago and it was a struggle for all of us. Childcare, petrol and a cleaner basically wiped out my wage anyway, everyone was super stressed and tired all the time and the house was a shithole.

So we’ve sort of fallen into the 1950s trap by accident and it works for us. But I’m not blind to the fact it is a trap, and that actually DH gets to work in a job he enjoys while I do all the shit work at home for him. The flip side of that is I have a LOT of time to do what the fuck I like all day and he basically gets two hours in the evening. It’s win win for us but it certainly wouldn’t be for everybody.

And that’s not forgetting the fact that patriarchal socialisation meant that he did STEM subjects and went to university while I fannied around with a psychology course, was a single parent from my early 20s and worked in a succession of pubs and shop jobs.

The sleep thing is interesting too, I breastfed all mine into toddlerhood and would always wake to the slightest noise, but now our youngest is six I’m a really deep sleeper and it’s always DH who wakes to let the cat out or deal with a sleepwalker.

I’m not sure that men getting higher earning jobs is brought about by them believing they deserve better - could it be in part that they believe they must fall into the role the patriarchy defines for them - breadwinner?

With regard to sleep and waking up for crying children that is learned behaviour. When I was breastfeeding I would always wake up. Pregnancy had already destroyed my sleep patterns, and of course their crying triggered the let down reflex

I don't have children and have never been pregnant, yet every time my neighbour's baby cried at night I woke up so it has nothing to do with learned behaviour.

Scientists say women are naturally lighter sleepers than men and so wake up more at noises.

My boobs would be ready to explode before DD woke up so I was always awake before she was anyway.

I absolutely hated maternity leave (was suicidally depressed). Whereas I think do would have enjoyed being at home with a baby. I've thought recently I'd even consider having a second child if I could go straight back to work and her dad look after her. But of course I'd feel desperately guilty and judged. Especially as I went through months of tortuous pain to bf DD and wasn't doing the same for second child. Not sure what my point is apart from cultural conditioning is strong, even when it goes against your own happiness.

What about nurturing roles being better paid? That’s the issue.
Not that women need to do less nutrturing roles But go for careers that are paid highly instead but that actually nurturing roles should be the most highly paid as they are what actually is the most important thing to develop and grow and survive.

That's interesting @SpartacusAutisticus. I think there's a strong element of learned behaviour: DH is a very deep sleeper who merrily slept through nightfeeds with DS1 (BF so nothing for him to do) but was quite able to wake and respond to him once I was back at work and we were splitting the night wakings. Definitely an element of expectation there. At the same time, obviously people naturally vary in how deeply they sleep. And I was very tuned into the DSs when breastfeeding: i woke before they did for feeds. I believe there's research that suggests Bf mothers and babies synch their sleep cycles so wake at the same time.

My DH could have 50 babies very easily.
Actually scientists have demonstrated through modelling that the strategy that will result in most offspring for a human man is to have sex with just one woman throughout her cycle (contraception not withstanding)
The thing about men being able to spread their seed is a bit of a myth.

Bertrand good point. of course feminism would help everyone. A female led world would be a beautiful place!
When did this all start? Of course religion cemented it all when god was declared a man and laws were built upon that but before that, how did it start that men said I’m better than you, and women didn’t say, get fucked, know your place and go and get us some food.

There's a bit on here, I'm sure there s lots more in Cordelia Fines book but I haven't read it
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2017/jan/18/testosterone-rex-review-cordelia-fine

And how come English has female words as prefixes to male words but French doesn’t? Sorry, random question.

Ooh that link looks interesting!

Damn it’s gone.

“Bertrand good point. of course feminism would help everyone. A female led world would be a beautiful place!”

Possibly. Or possibly not. But that’s not what feminism wants!

Society seems to be getting more, not less gender stereotypical.

It occurred to me whether the fact that the ability to know the sex of your baby before birth actually encourages that. If you are told the sex of the baby before birth does it encourage expectations of gender? For example, painting the baby's room pink or blue? Attributing strong kicks to the fact you know it's a boy?

When I had my children many decades ago there were no scans and no foreknowledge of you baby's sex so no months of possible imprinting gender stereotypes pre birth.

That's a bit waffly but I hope you know what I'm trying to say.

Bertrand do you speak for all of feminism? I would love a female led world.

"Bertrand do you speak for all of feminism? I would love a female led world."

Well, obviously I don't. But the word "equality" is a bit of a give away.......