Is there a deeper picture that we are afraid to talk about?

[speakout]

I have deep feminist views.But trying to understand the taboo surrounding sex differences.
I have been mulling over this issue in the past few weeks. My 17 yo DD is going through University application atm, hoping to do child nursing, but considering adult nursing too. So in the past month she has been attending interviews at different Universities for her courses. Often all day events, lots of group stuff, role play etc, usually involving 60 or so potential students at a time.
So in the past month over 4 Universities and meeting 200 fellow potential students she has met 4 males.
In her last interview for child nursing ( just been offered a place :)) there were zero males in a bunch of 70 potential students.
Can someone please help me understand this.

“I was hoping for a reasoned discussion.
Not to be unfortunately.”

What upset you, op?

Don't worry, your DD will come across plenty of male nurses in the much higher up roles in the profession (band 7+)

Is this because men who are nurses have tp overcome so much stigma to be a nurse that only a few, with a real passion for it, become nurses so of course they pursue opportunities?

Is it because men don't have time off with DC?

Or is it because they are so fawned over that their day to day work is termed "remarkable" and "extraordinary" (which fwiw nursing is, but women nurses are rarely praised in the same way) so of course they are remembered and promoted?

Is it socialisation? There was a study that shows a woman will, generally, not apply for a job if she doesn't meet just one of the criteria, while men are more confident to just give it a try.

As a former nurse I think it's a mixture of all these factors.

AccidentalBumming the only person who used the term 1950s housewife on here was the OP. I don't really see it much on the feminism boards, maybe on AIBU.

I am not sure whether it's 'jealousy' really. For those who work, it might be more of a defence mechanism because they are constantly told that they are not good mothers etc. I don't know.

Anyway, for me, that argument is quite irrelevant. I am more interested in why we live in a society that sees care as having little value or importance, yet pushes women towards it and demonises them for not being carers. I think most other feminists think the same.

Of sex differences were innate, they would be universal. They're not.

OP it’s a shame you’ve taken the views here as anything less than a reasoned discussion. I too have held the same view as you on innate biology (I’m very new to feminist theory but I’m now firmly down the rabbit hole) and what susan and others have said is enlightening, and said in a way that doesn’t require me to use intellectual abilities I don’t possess. Susan hasn’t blankly refuted that there could be biological differences but I fully accept that as things stand, we can never know, and there are compelling reasons why the college situation you describe arises from conditioning.

I think to be open to the argument susan puts forward, you have to first accept that there is a patriarchy. I suspect OP that your husband is a good and fair man who doesn’t view you as anything less than his equal and so it’s very difficult to see the wider picture and not be influenced by what happens at just the individual level. This is what I’ve grappled with the most.

It’s a good thread for learners like me OP, I’m sorry you’ve gone. And thanks Susan

With regard to sleep and waking up for crying children that is learned behaviour. When I was breastfeeding I would always wake up. Pregnancy had already destroyed my sleep patterns, and of course their crying triggered the let down reflex. But once my dc were no longer being breastfed and I was the parent back at work full time doing 60 hour weeks, it only took me a couple of weeks to train my dh to wake up to them & that continued. Several years later he is now the one who wakes up with our elderly pet to carry them downstairs & let them out during the night.

When the dc were young, sometimes I minded if they would ask for their daddy not me, but I still think that sharing the responsibility for caring has been best for all of us. And has given my dc the knowledge that men can be just as capable at childcare & housework as women.

Off to search Susanbunch to see what else I can learn from her

It's an interesting point about the OPs partner not waking to their dcs cries, I had always assumed my partner didn't her our dds cries, the noise never woke him either. Until last week when we brought our newborn home and partner has started sleeping in with dd1 while I do night feeds with dd2. Now he wakes, he tells me he only dozes because she's moving around making noises etc. I'm presuming that because before I was responsible for getting up with her, he was in a deeper sleep. It's definitely not biological, it's who ever is the main carer, sorry op.

I'm a SAHM and no-one here has told me that my choice is invalid well I think Xenia might have once but she was her very own person and lots and lots of people disagreed with her

Weird flounce.

Cat thank you . I wouldn't do too much searching- I do sometimes write a load of rubbish too... But I am glad you find it useful. As you rightly gleaned from my post, I don't deny biology or the fact that there may be differences between men and women. It's just that we can't reliably find that out now. I think it's more likely that there are differences between people- meaning that some women and some men are naturally inclined towards care and some women and some men are not.

OP come back, this is genuinely an interesting topic.

I have to say I think that as much as we are talking about young girls being socialised to care we can also see evidence of the opposite with young boys. I still know parents (in their 30s) who would be horrified to see their boy playing with a toy kitchen, or baby dolls etc and will tell them firmly that those aren’t for them whilst trying to foist a load of pink plastic stuff on my dds. I think there is actually far more acceptance these days that girls can do anything but boys can only do ‘boy’ things.

Of course, this opinion has come out of the world around me, but your opinion came out of yours. I think what I mean is you aren’t wrong to believe what you do, but it isn’t true for everyone, and I would apply that also to my way of thinking.

Now he wakes, he tells me he only dozes because she's moving around making noises etc. I'm presuming that because before I was responsible for getting up with her, he was in a deeper sleep. It's definitely not biological, it's who ever is the main carer, sorry op.

That's really interesting. Yes, I think this must be right. I am sure that if you know that you are not responsible for getting up that you sleep deeper.

I don't think for sex differences to be innate they need be universal
men are taller than women (except for the short men and tall women)

presumably the same could go for some other arbitrary thing like women have smaller, gentler fingers and are less likely to be colour blind so are better at taking bloods and putting catheters in.

I think it is a scary subject because if you start talking about differences, then people start discriminating and putting people in boxes. We all know that anything remotely associated with female is undervalued so id be scared to go down that road. Look how much we value strong and big over dexterous and small, (husband v me) yet on so many occasions its my physically superior skills that are needed.

I'm the least sensitive/chippy person in the world and yes, I've had that comments chucked at me plenty times.

If my husband is out of the house 13 hour a day I certainly do everything for him when he's at home (weekend we share the load) and I stand by that. His earning power is the reason I am able to be here and I am to a certain extent, grateful for that.

Has no other SAHM on here been labelled a "1950s housewife"? genuine question!

OP in case you're still reading, the socialisation of boys and girls starts from a very early age. There are videos showing how people treat babies differently when they are told that the baby is a girl when actually they're male and vice versa.

This article is an interesting read: www.spring.st/parents-unconscious-gender-bias-babies

accidental I’m sure they have but that’s a different argument to the one in this thread.

There are very few males in the caring professions because they are low paid professions. They are low paid because they are traditionally female roles, therefore men don't want them. It's the same in the veterinary profession. In 25 years I have met a grand total of 2 male veterinary nurses. Veterinary nursing is a highly skilled job, a 4 year degree nowadays, 1 year less than veterinary surgeons yet the salary for nurses is 50%+ lower. Whilst so few males are entering these professions the salaries will remain low.

Okay, that may be the case AccidentalBumming, but I think most feminists want equality for men and women, which means dismantling the current patriarchal structures.

I argue that care is just as valuable as earning an income. How would society survive if we did not have people who cared for others? However, society does not see it the same way, and currently women are being shafted by taking on the majority of caring work and often ending up financially dependent or in poverty as a result.

That does not negate the fact that (some aspects of) caring can be highly rewarding and many people want to do it. But the choice to care is not an entirely free one, so the fact that most of the care is carried out by women should not be taken as proof that women are natural carers and men are natural income earners.

I don't think that anyone should throw insults about concerning someone's decisions. That doesn't help address the wider problem of why care is so undervalued.

I’m sad-and a little bit bemused- that the OP has gone. I think this is a fascinating and under discussed topic. I’ve got so much to say about it I don’t know where to start - I feel like doing some bullet points then coming back later! I certainly think that the segregation of children into gender roles starts pre birth, and really ramps up the minute the poor little things emerge. I suppose it’s possible that there are brain differences, but they don’t appear to show in any physical form, and the the storm of stereotyping is so all pervasive that it seems just logical to assume that it is nurture rather than nature. And this leads naturally on to the classification of activities and occupations as male/female with the associated levels of status and money.

I do think this is an area where feminism missed a trick, actually. I remember in the 70s, if children were even mentioned in feminist discourse, it was just assumed that there would be free 24 hour nurseries. There was no talk about the psychology/politics of it.

I could type for ever, but I won’t, you well be glad to hear.

I think men have a more self-promoting aggressive attitude that makes them seek power and control. They can father a baby and not even know about it so surely that must reflect a biological difference in child rearing? Testosterone must come into it?
Isn’t the reason we’re in a patriarchal society because men are so bloody obsessed with proving themselves and feeding their egos? I see women as different to this in that they’re not led by their genitals, they’re actually more intelligent and superior. Yes we’ve been horribly suppressed by men and society for years, just as all good people have. Jesus was more like a woman. We really need more women at the top, but to get there they have to be very self serving and single minded.

Please do Bertrand

“Isn’t the reason we’re in a patriarchal society because men are so bloody obsessed with proving themselves and feeding their egos?”

Yes- but also men have to prove themselves to survive in a patriarchal society. It works both ways, which is why feminists say that feminism benefits men as well as women.

I've been criticised on MN for being a SAHM. But not on the feminist boards. Ironically. Given that we're all such high minded bitches who refuse to see anyone else's POV.

There was one very vociferous anti SAHM poster- I haven’t seen her for a while.

I think being a SAHM is problematic in terms of modeling to children. It’s incredibly important that the WOH parent acknowledges the SAHP’s equal contribution to the family regularly and articulately. I don’t think this happens very often.....

Bertrand
I think on the whole we agree - definitely about jobs and relative value which is why I am interested on your thoughts on this.

Something I really struggle to get my head around is the level of investment and personal risk a female puts into creating and offspring and level of guarantee that it is their offspring compared to a male. I see there is more incentive for a female to get the care for that baby right. My DH could have 50 babies very easily. I struggled to produce 2. I cant have anymore now. He can.

Now I don't think this means I can be an accountant and work out that the best care for my child is full time nursery but i'd be interested in your thoughts on how that difference in investment/risk has impacts on decision making.