Issues with gender self ID in other countries

[totallywired]

One of the arguments I keep hearing in favour of gender self ID id that in other countries where it has been introduced like Canada and Ireland there have been no problems with access to women’s safe spaces. Is this the case or is anyone aware of any instances of men accessing women’s spaces to abuse them?

now people are genuinely proposing that they should be housed alongside rapists and sex offenders.

Not even just housed alongside. Women are going to be locked up for the night with one of those sex offenders in a bed a few feet away, be forced to use the loo a few feet from them, to share a shower with them - and bear in mind how very few rapes/sexual offences make it to court, never mind are serious enough to get a prison sentence and you have some idea of the extreme nature of their offending.

Because that sex offender's feelings and desire for validation are far more important to the authorities than a woman's right to bodily safety, to consent, to not be assaulted, harassed or raped. Because on the risk assessment that is a possibility. Certainly the feelings of those women aren't even on the bloody radar. Women are collateral damage in the eyes of the establishment in the race to meet men's wants better and faster.

I think like OlennasWimple has pointed out, how would we know if there are problems? If for example, sexual violence is recorded as female on female then how would we know the scale of male on female violence?

If it is reported as female on female as well, of course, everyone will know that it's actually male on female but it might be hate speech to say this. The statistics are messed up. Male violence becomes invisible.

Does anyone know what the situations are like in Ireland and Canada and other countries? Are there any women's spaces and services left? I know that in Canada, Vancouver Rape Relief is still women-only as well as another women's shelter. They get regularly harassed. However, most of the country has totally drunk the Kool-Aid. Pro-porn, pro-prostitution, men in women's shelters.

Thanks for all the links pp have provided. I totally take the point people have made that it is difficult to get an overall picture of violence against natal women by trans women when trans women are legally defined as women. I was just looking for individual cases which has been documented so I can counter the claim that natal women in places with self id haven’t been negatively affected.

I understand that Ireland has kept the right to distinguish based on sex for some cases, including in prisons for example.
In Canada, it is too soon to see if any picture will emerge from the crime stats because in short, sex crimes are heavily under reported so the data needs to be gathered over many years to really understand it.
However it appears that one city may be holding a vote to reintroduce the ability to distinguish based on sex for places such a refuges.

I guess it's important to remember that self ID in itself may not be bad, although I think it's a way to avoid giving mental health support to a group of people who are often struggling, it all depends on how the rights of trans and women are managed in places where they might clash. At the moment since transphobia is a hate crime and misogyny isn't, i am worried

Really interesting points Oleana - thanks. Scary though.

Common sense seems to mostly apply in terms of trans prisoners at the moment in the UK. In fact it errs on the side of caution for the majority which has resulted in several trans women prisoners committing suicide recently out of distress of being held in a male environment.

Those with a Gender Recognition Certificate will be housed according to that. But remember that there are only a few thousand people with one of those and so the numbers with one who have been sent to prison in the past 14 years are very small.

Those without a GRC are judged appropriately by those making these decisions on site. Which I think is wise as there will be cases where transfer should or should not be sanctioned.

The move toward self identification would compromise this good sense if it meant that all current restrictions such as medical assessment, evidence of permanence of transition and a period of successful integration into society post transition were removed.

Regardless of the wider considerations as to whether self ID should be introduced at all, these changes cannot surely be applied in a prison population as already several male sex offenders seem to be awaiting the opportunity to hijack the law to their benefit.

This obviously cannot be allowed to happen so there is no case at all for removing the existing restrictions on a Gender Recognition Certificate within the prison environment and there may well be a case for strengthening the medical assessment element to be very sure that this is not abused.

Yes that likely will be rare and trans activists say it has not happened in countries where self ID already applies. But the way it has been pre-empted by some hard core prisoners in the UK when it is only being talked about is indication that we may need to be more vigilant.

You cannot prioritise the rights of someone who clearly has forfeited them by some heinous act over the rights of other prisoners who might be effected by giving away those rights.

I say this, by the way, as a trans woman who has never been in trouble so not expecting ever to be effected by it. And who has a GRC and an altered birth certificate so would be in a women's prison if I had been. I would regard it as just as wrong and see myself as much under threat by some sex monster abusing a do it yourself gender change law to gain access.

So this is a step too far not just for all of you but for any right thinking trans person too.

So this is a step too far not just for all of you but for any right thinking trans person too.

Of whom there are increasing numbers speaking out on MN

Transwomen reaching the point of suicide in male prisons is a terrible thing and needs urgent action, part of which is much higher quality provision of mental health care, and part of which is the provision of trans specific prison units. As with bathrooms and changing rooms, no one should have to be in facilities in which they feel unsafe. This is about everyone's needs being respected and no one ending up under the bus.

Excellent post *@Jayceedove *

Can I just point out that there have been six suicides by transwomen in prisons in the UK in the last ten years? All TIM, four with diagnosed complex mental histories and one who was being housed in the female estate at the time of death?

More details here

I'm wary that the actual rate of trans suicides in prison is becoming part of the narrative (like children who are prevented from transitioning), when it is not warranted. (I hope it goes without saying that no-one should ever be in a situation where they feel that suicide is their only option, trans or otherwise)

I'm wary that the actual rate of trans suicides in prison is becoming part of the narrative (like children who are prevented from transitioning), when it is not warranted. (I hope it goes without saying that no-one should ever be in a situation where they feel that suicide is their only option, trans or otherwise)

Seconded.

I agree Olenna and would be interested on the statistics for suicide in general in men's prisons and in the role played by mental health and provision (or lack of it) both in community and in prisons if anyone knows where to look for them.

The point I wanted to make, however clumsily, that it's not that gender critical women don't care, or that any TIM should experience fear, intimidation, discrimination, threat or violence, particularly inside a prison where there is no escape from perpetrators. I just believe that the same consideration should be extended to all prisoners equally, including women and that there should be other answers than to protect one group by making another unsafe.

Kneedeep - the link I posted ^^ (FairPlayForWomen) has lots of stats on prison deaths, and links to the relevant MoJ stats for more detail.

TL:DR - women and men in prison commit suicide at higher actual and proportional rates than prisoners who are recorded as trans

The only country I've lived in with self-ID is Malta - and it's an entirely different world to the UK anyway - it's small enough you could walk from one end to the other in a day (17miles top to bottom), the community is small and inter-related (or expat or tourist), it's hot, so people don't wear a lot for a lot of the year, it's heavily religious - there are frequent anti-abortion marches. It just can't be used as a sensible comparison to the UK.

There are transgender women who are in prison for sex offences against women, as I understand it after self Id comes in prison authorities would be forced to put them in women’s prion.

They wouldn't be forced to do anything. All trans prisoners are treated on a case by case basis. You can't just rock up at prison and on day 1 say "I feel a bit girly, think I'll ID as a woman" and on day 2 get moved to a female estate. An assessment is made - based on evidence (and counter evidence) and ultimately risk overrules everything. If moving the prisoner is deemed to pose a threat to other prisoners/staff/the prisoner/the public/whoever they won't be moved.

Self-id happened in Ireland with no public consultation whatsoever and people are only waking up to its implications now. TRAs are now pushing for self-id being extended to underage kids - there's a review process underway with the review board consisting of TRAs including the person who drafted the original GRA. They will push and push and push. Don't let self-id happen in the UK.

They wouldn't be forced to do anything. All trans prisoners are treated on a case by case basis. You can't just rock up at prison and on day 1 say "I feel a bit girly, think I'll ID as a woman" and on day 2 get moved to a female estate. An assessment is made - based on evidence (and counter evidence) and ultimately risk overrules everything. If moving the prisoner is deemed to pose a threat to other prisoners/staff/the prisoner/the public/whoever they won't be moved.

Try again.

At present, ALL prisoners with a GRC go to the female estate. Prisoners without a GRC are put on the transgender pathway and considered on a case by case basis.

Under a self-ID regime, any prisoner would be able to obtain a GRC either before or after trial by a simple legal declaration (you know, self-ID - the name is on the tin) and would then be in the female estate. No need for assessments (you know, self-ID - the name is on the tin).

There would be no legal mechanism to prevent all 10k sex offenders (and anyone else) in the male estate making this declaration and being legally entitled to the easier ride of transfer to the female estate.

Thirded. The suicide narrative is being used to push the idea that TIMs deserve to be transferred to women's prisons, and that logic is not in fact being restricted to the "nice" ones, no matter what some people may claim. Tara whatsisname for example should absolutely not have been in a women's prison, and there was a case of a far nastier sex offender who the Guardian was supporting having moved to a women's prison just recently.

The other thing to remember about the population of Ireland vs the UK is the difference in demographics. The population of Ireland is about 5m vs a UK population of 65m. The fact that Ireland is largely Catholic and 40% of the population live rurally (vs less than 20% in the UK) also has a bearing on social mores.

I just don't think you can draw valid parallels (notwithstanding the fact that Irish men are not allowed in the women's estate under self-ID).

A man in the Bronx was charged with murdering his husband yesterday but he had undergone gay conversion therapy so it was reported that a woman killed her husband. How can we possibly make adequate provision for support, facilities and education if we are not able to properly assess who is committing crime?

Are you in Ireland Capnhaddock? It's true we have a different cultural and political landscape but this madness is affecting the safety and privacy of women and girls right now.

www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ucd-introducing-gender-neutral-toilets-and-transgender-changing-facilities-829263.html

No I'm not Cunstance. I just really wanted to point out to people that say that if it isn't having an impact on W&Gs in Ireland, then it doesn't translate to the UK very well.

That's a very depressing article :(

Cunstancemarkiewicz are you seeing much public or political reaction to self ID in Ireland or has it flown under most people's radars? Also do you know if all the main political parties were in favour of self id?

It is. It's true we have some exemptions unlike the proposed UK act but the TRAs are relentless and even the GRA 2015 doesn't go far enough for them. They have hijacked everything women-related, even the Repeal the 8th (pro choice) movement, causing a really destructive schism in Irish feminism. They are ruthless aggressive bullies.

Totallywired some of us are working on it. All political parties on board because they don't want to be seen as bigots and haven't realky thought about it.

Try again.

At present, ALL prisoners with a GRC go to the female estate. Prisoners without a GRC are put on the transgender pathway and considered on a case by case basis.

No, that's not right Lang. All prisoners with a GRC would be assumed by default to be housed in the female estate, however they would be liable to be housed in the male estate should it be deemed necessary on the basis of the individual risk they pose. That risk would be assessed as if they were a female, but there is a mechanism there by which transwomen may be housed in the make estate as necessary.

It's being discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3185803-If-you-think-mn-is-strongly-transphobic?pg=16&order=

FWIW I'm not saying I think the decisions made by the prison system regarding risk are necessarily correct on a case by case basis, or in the best interests of women. But they do have the means at their disposal.

Same situation as UK then. I think it seems like an easy way for political parties to signal that they are nice and progressive, but I can't understand they don't stop it think about the impact it will have on women. So many people seem to believe even questioning the dogma of gender identity for a moment will make them bigots, meanwhile the majority of people here in the UK are unaware of the proposed changes to the GRA. Maybe even if they knew they wouldn't care.