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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brighton and Hove Council introduce pronoun badges

67 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2018 12:06

www.brightonandhovenews.org/2018/03/09/council-staff-given-thousands-of-pronoun-badges-so-public-dont-assume-their-gender/
Council staff given thousands of pronoun badges so public don’t assume their gender

If you don't wear a badge of course, you don't support the cause. This is thought policing on an epic scale.

I look forward to this policy being rolled out in Stoke, Hull, Blackpool, Hartlepool etc...

OP posts:
Datun · 09/03/2018 16:41

It is absolutely all about power.

And the arbitrary rules that you don't know if you've infringed thing.

A stick, based on a fiction, with a horribly sinister real life outcome.

Bejazzled · 09/03/2018 16:45

I guess that council isn't short of money then. No cut backs to essential services?

GlitterGlue · 09/03/2018 16:49

It’s a fucking ridiculous idea with sinister undertones. I would absolutely be making good use of the blank ones.

And I agree with the person upthread who said that people often encounter council staff in times of crisis. The general population really doesn’t give a shit if Mandy likes to be addressed as xie or Her royal highness as long as they get their food bank voucher.

GlitterGlue · 09/03/2018 16:51

In fact I’d be labelling a badge with ‘I’m with stupid’ and an arrow - then standing next to the dickwad who came up with the idea.

BarrackerBarmer · 09/03/2018 16:52

Actually, the more emboldened the dingbats become in producing such balderdash, the faster the average person reaches PeakTrans.

This kind of stuff is where normal people will just roll their eyes and start to associate the whole movement with fools.

Those badges won't last a year.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 09/03/2018 16:57

My maternal grandparents spent what felt like 70% of their time telling me about the second world war. I used to roll my eyes at much of what they said, being young. But the hardships they endured. They would be horrified at the preciousness of all this.

TRA's always remind me of the Armstrong and Miller pilots going 'It's against your human rights though, isn't it?'
'Isn't it, blud?'

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/03/2018 17:00

The problem is people's jobs could be at risk

However, if enough people do it, they can't sack them all....

nauticant · 09/03/2018 17:13

The worst thing about this proposal is the power it gives to certain of the badge wearers. The non-trans badge wearers will use conventional pronouns and it will change nothing. Militant trans badge wearers will be given a stick they can use to beat members of the public with who are trying to access services. If a militant trans badge wearer feels that they are not being accorded the correct type of respect, they will be able to hinder easy access to services.

This means that badge wearers, who are servants of the public, and who are paid by the public, will effectively be put in a position to control access to services by the public, some of whom will be vulnerable and at risk of not being able to navigate the complex maze that they can be directed in to. It is simply horrible.

terfsRus · 09/03/2018 17:15

B&H peddling a "Trans Visibility Day" on March 31st - is this a new thing? Have I been living under a rock? Feels like I've been stuck in a trans visibility year so far?!

Waddlelikeapenguin · 09/03/2018 17:17

Yeah who needs libraries when you burn all the books you can spend money on wee badges Hmm

dorothyparka · 09/03/2018 17:20

Where are they getting their PR advice from, Perfect Curve?

Razzlefrazzle · 09/03/2018 17:36

I live in Brighton & Hove. Today our local paper is running a story about one of our primary schools having to cut TA jobs to save money. I cannot comprehend how spending on these badges can be justified when essential services are under funded.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2018 17:41

Well

www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/human-rights/what-are-human-rights/human-rights-act/article-10-freedom-expression

Our freedom of expression – protected by Article 10 of the Human Rights Act – is fundamental to our democracy.

It means we’re free to hold opinions and ideas and share them with others without the State interfering – which is crucial to keeping our Government accountable and transparent.

Article 10 may be limited in certain circumstances. Any limitation must:
be covered by law
be necessary and proportionate
for one or more of the following aims:
national security, territorial integrity or public safety
preventing disorder or crime
protecting health or morals
protecting other people's reputation or rights
^preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence
maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.^

When considering whether free expression should be limited, courts will question whether doing so could have a ‘chilling effect’ on expression, the value of the particular form of expression and the medium used.

Limiting free expression usually involves restrictions on publication, penalties for publication, requiring journalists to reveal their sources, imposing disciplinary measures or confiscating material.

I do wonder if this is on very rocky ground legally given the above.

The exact text of the 1998 HRA says:

Freedom of expression
1 Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2 The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

If wearing one of those local government mandated badges restricts an individuals ability to freely express gender critical thoughts or opinions does this restrict their rights and freedom? Its a constant reminder that they can not be gender critical.

I'm not convinced the grounds for limitation of freedom is sufficient in this case.

It certainly is questionable because it might have a chilling effect on people who don't feel able to challenge certain situations or scenarios because it creates a culture where to do so, is very difficult. Both in public and in private.

Could you be gender critical in private, and hold a job in government?
Would it put you at risk of being reported if you didn't wear it?

Given there is a court ruling where a 4 year old boy was forced to live as a girl for the mothers benefit (effectively child abuse) this is effectively saying that you can't challenge that.

Imagine the council employee wearing that badge. Would that aid a child speak out and say, I'm being force to say I'm the opposite gender? Would it help the council employee being bullied by a transgender superior?

They perhaps unwittingly, perhaps deliberately create a culture where trans is untouchable. That raises fundamental questions about the transparency of local government.

Also worth considering:
Article 9 - Freedom of thought, belief and religion
The Act protects the rights of people to have their own thoughts, beliefs and follow religions of their choice; it also includes the right to change their religion or belief at any time. Religion and belief is one of the protected characteristics within the Equality Act and it is unlawful to discriminate against workers because of their religion or belief or lack of religion or belief.

Now, that could really make for an interesting case. The idea of being born in the wrong body could legally be defined as a belief. Belief is 'an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof'.

I think EU law, makes a distinction here stating the right to have a religion, to hold a belief or not to believe, with the terms “belief” and “religion” to be broadly construed and not be limited to traditional religions or to religions and beliefs with institutional characteristics or practices analogous to those of traditional religions. States should not restrict the freedom to hold any religion or belief. Coercion to change, recant or reveal one’s religion or belief is equally prohibited.

Just pondering...

OP posts:
NinjagoNinja · 09/03/2018 17:42

No such thing as preferred pronouns. We don't get to choose. Take a look between your legs people:

Penis down there? You're a he.
Vagina? She.
Vulva? Mumsnetters.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 09/03/2018 17:47

Vulva? Mumsnetters

Tru dat Grin

TheGoldenBough · 09/03/2018 17:49

Penis down there? You're a he.
Vagina? She.
Vulva? Mumsnetters.

😂

Oh and I'm definitely a Mumsnetter. .

Goldmonday · 09/03/2018 17:51

Why is this being launched on the back of international women's day???!

Wtf does this have to do with women's rights???

Some women aren't able to make choices about their own reproductive systems, yet not offending anyone with the wrong pronoun is higher up on the list of priorities?????

Gonna go get drunk and angry

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2018 17:55

Why is this being launched on the back of international women's day???!

Demonstration of power.

OP posts:
AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 09/03/2018 17:56

Red

That's interesting. At least Canada changed the law re. pronouns with the C16 bollocks, but this is just been imposed with no legal changes at all.

The fine for misgendering is in NYC, from what have read. I don't quite understand how this can be done. At State level, certainly the law can be changed, but this change to freedom of speech at a municipal level? Also pondering..

OvaHere · 09/03/2018 18:02

Perhaps we could spend Trans Visibility Day reminding all tweeters that not all women are transwomen.

thebewilderness · 09/03/2018 18:10

I wonder what colors and shapes they will use for the different beliefs.

SunsetBeetch · 09/03/2018 18:11

I think I've had enough. I think I'm going to live on a desert island or something. Every. Single. Day. There is some new craziness.

Terfmore · 09/03/2018 18:11

Ovahere - that would be great idea.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2018 18:12

Can you define gender as anything more than belief?

If you go through what all the prominent TRAs say about it, then they actually pretty much say that. I'm not sure you can get away from it, because there isn't anything scientific there and given the anti-science and resistance to research it only reinforces the idea that its nothing more than a belief. It behaves like a cult. It talks of being 'born in the wrong body' like a soul.

"if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck"

I think it would be very difficult to argue against in court. If its defined in law as a belief, then surely that would offer protection to sex as a class.

Speaking of Canada, this article has greatly amused me, given the law on who is male and female there:
www.standard.co.uk/news/world/judge-rules-parents-do-not-have-to-lie-about-the-easter-bunny-a3786216.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1520609277
Judge rules parents do not have to lie about the Easter Bunny

OP posts:
MeganChips · 09/03/2018 18:16

Christ on a cracker.

I don’t work for them but I am on working on site there occasionally. There is no way in hell I am wearing one.

I’m not on site for a couple of weeks but if anyone is interested I can report back.

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