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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA arrested outside Department for Health

92 replies

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 08/03/2018 12:13

"A protester who was taking part in an Women’s Strike UK action at the Department of Health and Social Care has been arrested, the group says.

According to the group:

Trans women and their allies were peacefully protesting the Department of Health this morning to call urgent attention to the failings in the provision of healthcare for trans people."

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/mar/08/international-womens-day-2018-live-protests-press-for-progress-live

I bet you a tenner it's one of our Action for Trans Health Pals.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 08/03/2018 16:23

On average two women are killed by their partner or ex-partner every week in England and Wales
Jess Phillips reads the list compiled by the great Karen Ingala Smith.
It takes 5 minutes to read out the names of this year's list. Including 3 murdered at the weekend.
www.itv.com/news/2018-03-08/mp-jess-phillips-reads-list-of-women-killed-by-male-violence-since-last-international-womens-day/

She said, if this was happening in a particular type of job or at a sporting event there would be national outcry.

There was a shocking MN thread recently on childbirth. So many women have sustained long term injuries from giving birth in Britain. I don't think it's like this in France and the Netherlands

Kneedeepinunicorns · 08/03/2018 16:23

What are we seeing clearly from this?

People with penises are better at shouting louder and raising Cain, and see not getting what they want (or having to wait or take turns) as outrageous and unfair.

People with penises see their needs as intrinsically more important and significant and certainly as a higher priority than the needs of those with vaginas.

A really scary amount of society does automatically and unquestioningly accept that people with penises have a point if they do not get the penis portion of whatever is going, and do intrinsically value the opinions, feelings, needs and demands of people with penises, expecting those with vaginas to give way. (And calling them all sorts of names and dehumanising them if they don't.)

There, in essence, is why women ever conforming to or colluding in the polite social lie 'transwomen are women' is in effect erasing and oppressing women.

Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 16:26

A really scary amount of society does automatically and unquestioningly accept that people with penises have a point if they do not get the penis portion of whatever is going, and do intrinsically value the opinions, feelings, needs and demands of people with penises, expecting those with vaginas to give way. (And calling them all sorts of names and dehumanising them if they don't.)

You're right. It's never been quite so well demonstrated as with this issue and it's been hard to come to terms with. And these people don't even realise their penis-centric biased worldview.

CycleHire · 08/03/2018 16:33

I’ve known two women take their own lives in the past year. Both had suffered with mental health problems that started or got worse after the birth of their child/ren. They won’t be in those stats though because their child/ren with 3, 8 and 11 when they died.

ijustwannadance · 08/03/2018 16:54

Regarding suicide and trans women. I read somewhere (US statistics), the rates of suicide and attempted suicide in trans people doesn't change at any stage of transitioning. the rate is the same before a person 'decides' they are trans as it is after 'full' transition.

Because as admitted in the article, the majority have severe mental health issues that are not dealt with. They think hormones and surgery are the answer to all of their problems, so when there is nothing left to change they can no longer escape the underlying issue.

thebewilderness · 08/03/2018 20:46

I could be wrong but they appear to be blocking the door.

Elletorro · 08/03/2018 20:49

RTB

You are personally responsible for me succeeding in securing an elective c section.

Your threads in childbirth are such an amazing resource. I faced strong opposition but followed your advice whilst the tears streamed down my face when I could not speak for sobbing my husband (primed with the NICE guidelines you referred me to) advocated for me.

Thank you

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2018 21:03

Here's some more suicide related stats and information.

Whilst the rate of suicides for men is significantly higher in all age groups for men, there are some worrying signs. The overall rate for men is declining. But:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/07/suicide-rate-young-women-highest-20-years-experts-warn-mental/
Suicide rate for young women highest for 20 years as experts warn of mental health crisis

This is largely being link to social media. And they are starting to regard women in the 20 - 24 age group as potentially 'high risk' now.

Traditionally women have been twice as likely to attempt suicide than men, but men were four times more likely to actually succeed in killing themselves.

Also:
In an examination of young suicide victims carried out by his department, one in four of the cases covered had used the internet in some way that was suicide-related, including posting about their plans on social media or researching methods.

The rate for women in all age groups, is also the highest its been for 10 years according to the Samaritans.
www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/facts-and-figures-about-suicide

The Samaritans conclude that this year on year change is too early to suggest that this if is a long term trend, but it needs to be kept an eye on.

They also stress the that there should be a focus on local suicide prevention. With co-ordination and prioritisation of suicide prevention activity, particularly targeting areas with high levels of socio-economic deprivation. And that there should be responsible portrayal of suicide in the media.

They also stress the following:
Be careful of small groups/populations
The size of populations should be considered when looking at suicide rates. Smaller populations often produce rates that are less reliable as the rates per 100,000 are based on small numbers. Therefore, differences in the number of suicides may have a bigger impact on the rate than in a larger population. An example of this might be suicide in older people (eg over 80 years), as the population size is lower than in younger age groups

and of course the obligatory:

Sensitive and responsible reporting of suicide
When talking about suicide publically or in the media, it is crucial to do so sensitively and responsibly, to minimise the risk of contagion (a phenomenon of suicidal behaviours that seems to occur as a result of previous suicides or attempts by others). Samaritans’ Media Guidelines provide advice for journalists about how to do this. These guidelines are often most related to reporting of occurrences of suicides, however, the principles of these guidelines should be followed for the reporting of suicide statistics and particularly when reporting on increases of suicides in particular groups.

Their report has some other really cracking points to consider when talking about suicide (which struck me when looking at how maternal suicides are recorded).

The Samaritans also talk about how the rate of suicide is recorded. This is pretty significant, because there is a difference between the sexes in how they attempt suicide.

It is commonly acknowledged within the field of suicide research and prevention that official statistics underestimate the ‘true’ number (and, therefore, rate) of suicide.

One of the main reasons for the under-reporting of suicide is the misclassification of deaths. This means that the cause of death is coded as something other than suicide. An example of this is where a coroner cannot establish whether there was intent by the individual to take their own life. Consequently, the cause of death may be recorded as one of ‘undetermined intent’ or ‘accidental’. This may occur in situations where the death involved a road traffic accident or is long-term illness. It could also be difficult to determine whether there was intent to die in situations of self harm leading to suicide.

The difference in methods of suicide between males and females is discussed by many researchers historically: males seem to choose more ‘final’ and ‘obvious’ methods than females. It may be that in methods more commonly used by females, the intent cannot be determined (or assumed) as easily as in methods more common to males. This may, in part, explain some of the variation in rates between the genders, as there may be more under-reporting of suicidal deaths in females.

Let me repeat here:
They are saying that female suicides are perhaps more likely to be coded as accidental or undetermined intent due to the methods chosen rather than classified as suicides.

Let me note here again:
Traditionally women have been twice as likely to attempt suicide than men, but men were four times more likely to actually succeed in killing themselves.

They stress that there is a lack of research into the reliability of suicide statistics and that there were lots of other factors that lead to inconsistencies in data, nationally, regionally and from coroner to coroner. They point to whether like for like is actually being compared and whether coroner verdicts indicate intent or not, taking into account cultural or social sensitivities. (They are often open to subjectivity and interpretation for this reason).

They state:
Reliability is affected by the multiple definitions of suicide. Silverman suggested that a decade ago, there were more than 27 definitions of suicide used in the research literature. Today, the problem of defining and classifying suicide and suicidal behaviours in research is still a problem which hinders our understanding of the subject

In short, the Samaritans say just how hard it is to compare suicide rates and the degree to which they are open to interpretation abuse. And they say that, there is a difference between males and females, which is likely to lead to under reporting, particularly in women.

Fascinating huh?

LangCleg · 08/03/2018 21:08

Traditionally women have been twice as likely to attempt suicide than men, but men were four times more likely to actually succeed in killing themselves.

And worth pointing out that this is, again, because of male violence. Men pick more violent methods, so succeed more often. Women tend to take overdoses and so emergency services can sometimes save them.

TheRollingCrone · 08/03/2018 21:11

10 fucking times I visited my GP begging for help with menopausal symptoms.
was only women on here saying "Go back, demand, ask to see a woman GP"
Two years living in a fog before I could get HRT.

I wish i'd have self id'd as a woman iding as man iding as woman.

verytempnamechange · 08/03/2018 21:13

One off name change for this. Your most recent post really struck a chord, RTB. When DC was a baby I had what I think must have been post-natal depression. I spent quite a lot of time thinking I was a rubbish mum and he'd be better off without me. And I spent quite a lot of time thinking about how I'd do it. One of the thought processes was "how could I do this so it looked like an accident?" I had this idea that it would be easier for him growing up and for my family if they could believe it was a tragic accident.

Fortunately I never acted on the feelings and that very dark time in my life passed.

Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 21:17

Red your posts on this thread is brilliant. Have bookmarked it for all the links.

Ereshkigal · 08/03/2018 21:17

*are brilliant

AngryAttackKittens · 08/03/2018 21:26

“Almost every trans person I know is severely mentally ill. It is no coincidence. It is because of the violence we face everyday, and the government is barely willing to help.”

Funny how the levels of mental illness are the same in even the most trans-affirming places, eh?

I'm not really buying the idea that this person was arrested for just standing there.

AngryAttackKittens · 08/03/2018 21:27

Also! Looks like there were a bunch of people there, so again, why was this specific person arrested when other protestors weren't?

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2018 21:29

The differences and disparity in health alone, show just how crucial it is that women are represented politically by biological women.

Because biology influences your life experience hugely.

Your risk factors and the way you behave are hugely impacted by the way you are socialised by gender stereotypes as you grow up.

Saying you can ignore sex and merely opt out of the gender stereotypes imposed on your sex by declaring yourself trans, misses the point entirely.

You can't escape your own reality.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2018 21:44

And having read the Samaritans stuff, I'd argue that because there is a cultural lean towards the idea that trans people are more likely to attempt suicide, that also lends itself to coroners perhaps being more likely, not less likely, to record a death as suicide because there isn't a taboo there but a social expectation.

I could be wrong about this, but the Samaritans in making the point that coroners are free to make narrative verdicts or to omit suicide from a verdict due to cultural or family sensitivities, by default could mean the converse if a family want / expect a verdict of suicide.

Not only have you got a potential social contagion for someone to take those actions in the first place, you've also got a bias as to how actions will be interpreted afterwards, which isn't the same as the general population.

Stats and data interpretation. I love 'em!

They are cracking to sit down and analysis their weaknesses and assess what they actually say (or don't say)... Context is everything.

OlennasWimple · 08/03/2018 21:49

Ah yes, the "cis-tem" at work again, arresting people innocently standing around with their faces covered outside government buildings Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2018 21:55

Thanks for the suicide stats, red
but I'm horrified "Suicide is a leading cause of death during pregnancy and one year after birth"
I never realised Sad

We should be shouting this from the rooftops
instead, transwomen - men - are doing all the shouting and very aggressively;
they are grabbing some of the already meagre budget that was intended to help vulnerable women.

thebewilderness · 08/03/2018 21:57

I have often wondered if part of the reason we fail at suicide so often is because we are so young when we first begin to try. We do not have the resources available to us.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/03/2018 21:59

We should be shouting this from the rooftops

Actually, unlike the TRAs this is something new should be very wary about shouting about this. Suicide is contagious and continuously publicising that a particular group is more at risk of suicide for a particular reason is deeply irresponsible.

It should of course be studied, but things around suicide need to be reported responsibly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/03/2018 22:00

I have often wondered if part of the reason we fail at suicide so often is because we are so young when we first begin to try

Generally speaking women fail because they are more likely to use a less violent method than males. Previous suicide attempts is one of the highest risk factors for a death by suicide though.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2018 23:45

I'm of the opinion that the key here is mental health support. Or lack of. Not bloody suicide rates as a weapon. They only demonstrate an unresolved underlying problem. They are not the problem itself.

We all deserve it. We aren't getting it.

But im buggered if im going to be told that trans are the most vulnerable and oppressed. Its simply not true.

And its easy to demonstrate that needs of vulnerable women should be higher up the agenda than they are. If anyone cared about those vulnerable people rather than had a desperate need to virtue signal and proclaim their leftie credentials.

Its about need not identity.

Sex remains importance. In terms of research its still invaluable.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 09/03/2018 03:12

What I dont get is the idea that the more discriminated against you are the more likely you are to commit suicide.

Are there higher rates amongst BME communities? Disabled people etc? Possibly so but I'm not sure this has really been studied/ controlled for.

OP posts:
SophoclesTheFox · 09/03/2018 06:59

Wow. Imagine if rather than the endless arcticles on Penis NEws or Everyday Meninism about how women blinking and breathing excludes the specific needs of trans people, this thread appeared, titled "How to be an ally to women by getting a sense of perspective".

Fab analysis, red.

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