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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dear Sophie Walker...

69 replies

ArcheryAnnie · 28/02/2018 10:51

I don't know if you or your staff will ever read this, but here goes.

I was really impressed that you came to the Women's Place meeting in London yesterday. I was sitting with a big group of MNers, to your left, and I don't think any of us had any idea at all that you were there. It can't have been easy for you, sitting in that room and hearing hundreds of feminists hiss and boo whenever the WEP was mentioned by any speaker. I can't imagine you ever envisaged that when you started up an avowedly feminist political party. You were brave to stand up after that.

I was sorry you didn't stay until the end. I understand it, but I think it's a real pity.

But, but, but. It's no use taking notes and saying you are listening, if you don't take any account of what women are actually saying to you. I don't know either you or Heather Brunskell-Evans personally, but what I see from the outside is that one of you is willing to be transparent about what went on in the WEP, and one of you is hiding behind procedure as a way of avoiding transparency. It's not enough for you to shout out "that's not true" when Heather is talking, if you aren't prepared to speak on this yourself. It was clear to me that Heather would give you permission to publish, so why don't you? Because the reality is that so many women - at that meeting and elsewhere - have been threatened and hounded and ostracised and censured for saying pretty unremarkable things (such as "maybe we should think carefully before sterilising gender nonconforming children") that of course we are going to take Heather's side. So many of us have been there already.

You say that the WE formulates policy slowly, and that you are listening, but we here have been trying to talk to you about this since at least November 2015, and the ill-fated Guest Post from Sandi Toksvig. How long do you expect to take on this? Sandi wrote "Join us, share your ideas" and then buggered off, not leaving even one party member of the then alleged 50K members to bother to discuss ideas and answer questions with us. (This is what we had to say then, in case you'd like to know: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2502963-Guest-post-Sandi-Toksvig-The-time-is-right-for-the-Womens-Equality-Party?pg=1)

That was more than two years ago. How long, seriously, do you expect us to give you to formulate a coherent policy on these issues, when in the meantime your actions have show again and again that you are prepared to throw women under the bus? As the mighty Datun said at yesterday's meeting, sadly after you'd left, "Shit, or get off the pot".

There was one point during the meeting last night where I consciously thought "blimey this is it - I'm witnessing the last gasp of the WEP before its unhappy demise". I don't know whether that's true. I don't know whether you can row back from this. But you are now, for good or for ill, a player on the political stage, and you have, still, the goodwill of many women. (Although not nearly as many as you had at the start, I can promise you that.) You got off on a bad foot with MNers right from the start, and we could reasonably expect to be your natural allies, even those of us with existing loyalties to other political parties. How can you hope to be a mainstream political party if you are unable to talk successfully with us?

Where do you go from here?

OP posts:
LangCleg · 01/03/2018 10:20

Brie - I mean, when onlookers know more about party procedure and other such bollocks than they do about party campaigns and policy positions. I say this to you because I have been a member of the Labour Party for thirty years. Public bullcrap about internal disputes is our MO! Party procedure and bureaucracy should be visible at conference and invisible the rest of the time. Invisible bureaucracy means things are working as they should and nobody is kicking up a public fuss about unfair treatment or factional dispute because nobody is being treated unfairly and policy was properly debated and decided at conference. Invisible bureaucracy means that the general public actually sees your policies and campaigns.

RNBrie · 01/03/2018 16:06

@LangCleg - I see what you're saying. I agree. It's embarrassing.

TheXXFactor · 01/03/2018 19:54

I'd love to know what percentage of WEP members support the party's stance on TIMs. Given that the demographics of the WEP are similar to those of MN, I bet it's a tiny minority. So where is the transparency and where is the democracy?

I don't know any of the individuals involved, so this may be unfair, but the impression I get of the WEP leadership is that they expected women to fall at their feet with gratitude at merely having come up with the idea of a women's party. When women actually wanted to know what they were signing up to, and to be involved in policy discussions, the WEP leaders ignored them or slapped them down. That's no way to lead any kind of popular movement. You can't keep everyone happy, but you have to win your legitimacy as leaders, not expect to be handed it on a plate.

SmurfOrTerf · 01/03/2018 21:17

I've got a simple solution.
Fair Play For Women can become a political party
and WEP can become TWEP

Then we're all happy Grin

PencilsInSpace · 01/03/2018 21:44

Brilliant letter Archery.

BarrackerBarmer · 01/03/2018 22:46

I'd rather crash and burn on the scrapheap of history trying to defend the rights of women, than capitulate to a lie that no-one believes and contribute to the undoing of women's rights entirely.

Nothing is worth that, Sophie. Nobody's career is that important.
Women need courage and bravery and integrity from their leaders.
We need politicians ready to say an unpopular truth, not a popular lie.
If you think there is any way out of this that leaves people unscathed, you're wrong.

It's already an ugly fight.
It isn't ending well for women.
You might as well go down with some integrity.

dorade · 01/03/2018 23:38

I was a WEP. Member, but no more.

When WEP state clearly that:

A. Women are adult human females of the sex that produce ova
B. Sex is not assigned at birth, it is observed and recorded
C. Men cannot become women
D. Women do not have penises

then I will rejoin.

Let's be honest - recognising that men can't become women represents a huge gap in the political party market.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 02/03/2018 05:42

ContemporaryPankhurst

Anything WEP says smacks of hypocrisy now. They want to talk about sex discrimination they need to recognise sex as the axis of oppression.

So well put - it's so blindingly obvious to everybody who cares about's women's oppression, other than the WEP it would seem

Patodp · 02/03/2018 07:13

RNBrie

It surely can't be that hard for them to find a middle ground?

I'd welcome trans women and trans men into the party, as members, as policy makers, as spokespeople, it surely can't be impossible to say-

"In order to best represent our membership and wider voting demographic, we all need to recognise biology as an identifier, whilst we all remain free to express whichever ever identity we feel"

I always imagine in my head something like 4 tick boxes and a personalised option in data gathering...

Sex M □ F □ Other __
Identity M □ F □ Other __

No one should be denied recognition of either their sex or identity. All policies should be shaped around a negotiated position that best suits the needs of all concerned.

There are loads of ways to enable transwomen to live as "women" without taking anything from women. Germany are slightly ahead on this.

That's what I would suggest to WEP
and do if I ran the world...

Cwenthryth · 02/03/2018 08:00

There are loads of ways to enable transwomen to live as "women" without taking anything from women. Germany are slightly ahead on this.

Can you say a bit more about where/how Germany are ahead? I’ve just done some quick googling and found out about their introduction of a ‘third sex’ option but this seems to address intersex rights, not transgender.

I 100% agree on separating out sex and gender. However, in many (most?) contexts gender is irrelevant, and it is sex that is the necessary distinction - definitely when we’re trying to fight sexism, anyway!

I’m so glad to see you here, RNBrie, as a fellow gender critical WEP member. To everyone else - it’s clear WE have a lot of work to do to regain credibility, but this has to happen within the party. Sophie Walker can’t just unilaterally backtrack on behalf of the whole party. Personally I’m placing a lot of store on conference. Any remaining WEPers who haven’t yet resigned membership over this - please, consider staying, let’s try and work on this to take a motion to conference in 6 months time. I still think WE are worth saving, we need a feminist voice in UK politics, and trying to start another party - we’d just be heading into the People’s Front of Judea, surely.

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 02/03/2018 08:15

Sophie gives the impression that this is something WEP are just starting to become aware of, but that's not true.

It was 2015 when MNers challenged WEP on their support of Tara Hudson & Sophie gave us a load of gender soundbites.

Every time a WEP member has been on for a webchat since we've raised it again & they've either ignored us or repeated their "transwomen are women" line. Every time they've left us increasingly disappointed & unimpressed.

By rights a Women's Equality Party member should have been up there on the stage speaking up for us the other night, not defending themselves at the back.

Sophie showed guts the other night, standing up in a room that had been booing & hissing her party all evening. I'd love to see WEP show some more guts & come out on our side.

Patodp · 02/03/2018 08:37

Can you say a bit more about where/how Germany are ahead

In Sports, TIMs times are recorded separately to female times, so fastest/strongest female will still be recognised as such when beaten by a TIM.

I understand they are ahead in separating TIMs from women in prison.

The X option is open to transgender people when they change their birth certificate, but I very much doubt self identified Transpeople ever apply for an X birth certificate.
It's used to identify intersex.

in many (most?) contexts gender is irrelevant, and it is sex that is the necessary distinction
That's what we think but we need to accept many disagree with that point of view. Political parties need to recognise and represent both people of this view and the self identity ideologues.

RNBrie · 02/03/2018 09:53

@ArcheryAnnie - there is only one area of the constitution/policy document that covers gender self ID and it was voted on at conference in 2016. It says this....

“WE recognise that the binary words ‘woman’ and ‘man’ do not reflect the gender experience of everyone, and support the right of all to define their sex or gender or to reject gendered divisions as they choose.”

I can't find any other references to gender self-id. In the leadership debates, the question of self-id came up and Sophie's response was something along the lines of the current process to get a GRC being dehumanising and she supports self-id as per the Policy. I think this is a really weak answer given that there is basically fuck all in the policy and absolutely nothing in the Constitution about it.

I don't think there has ever been much in the way of sustained debate party-wide on this aspect of the policy. And no one needs to point out the flaw in this statement about defining your sex, I am well aware of it!

@TheXXFactor - No one has any statistics on what proportion of WEP members support gender self-id. There has never been a membership survey on that subject. My anecdotal experience of discussing it in branch and other meetings is that most members have no idea of the ramifications of gender self-id and so will say they support it because they are liberal and don't want to appear transphobic.

This is purely my own opinion, but tallies with the conversations I've had with non-WEP members too. There is a real lack of awareness.

@EmpressOfJurisfiction - I agree that its been an issue that the party has been aware of for a while. I also agree the webchats were useless and that WEP's engagement with Mumsnet has been embarrassing. I generally keep my head down on all of these sorts of threads because of it.

ArcheryAnnie · 02/03/2018 11:01

RNBrie can I just check - you say that it was voted on at the 2016 conference, but in the list of the 22 resolutions voted on at the conference on the WEP website, I can't find it at all:

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/womensequality/pages/1753/attachments/original/1481019661/WE_2016_Conference_resolutions.pdf?1481019661

...have I missed it? I've gone through it with a fine-tooth comb!

OP posts:
RNBrie · 02/03/2018 11:28

From what I understand the vote on the policy and constitution was separate from the votes on resolutions.

The policy document was written in 2015 after they ran a bunch of policy workshops for anyone who was interested. The policy was then presented to members in 2016 and voted on at the conference (unanimously apparently).

The section covering self-id is literally that one statement above.

It's also worth mentioning that I've also had confirmation from head office that no party member has ever been or would ever be sanctioned for publicly disagreeing with party policy.

So what I said to @UpstartCrow about not towing the party line is totally wrong. HBE apparently broke sections of the volunteer code and constitution. They won't say specifically what she said or did that broke these sections and are still hiding behind the "confidentiality" shield. I am not alone in struggling with this!!

So Sophie could turn around and say that she personally disagrees with self-id but she can't say that the Party disagrees with self-id unless the policy is changed. Regardless of what you believe regarding self-id it's pretty clear to me that the policy is deeply lacking in clarity on the matter and I am now sure this will get addressed in time for conference.

ArcheryAnnie · 02/03/2018 11:51

Ah, understood, RNBrie.

OP posts:
pamish · 05/03/2018 02:55

Was Self-ID around as a Thing when the party was writing its constitution? When was the MMiller committee first tasked with reviewing the GRA?
.

ContemporaryPankhurst · 05/03/2018 13:04

womanformallyknownaswoman thank you. This feminist is having a bit of a wobble at the moment.
My best friend of 10 years sent me a message asking me to explain why I publicly appeared to support the Terf agenda, spread hate speech, don't recognise my cis privilege, commit biological gate-keeping on who can be called a woman etc. It was unnerving and I think I laid out my arguments as best I could. The good thing was that although her message began in a way I thought was antagonistic and coming from a false perception she asked me to explain my view. I get the feeling that she is now policing what I say in public - this under maybe other circumstances would be an act of kindness so I don't make a tit of myself but I feel like as we say some others have drank the trans kool-aid, I am now drunk on terf.

Has anyone else experienced similar? Longstanding friends or family reacting very negatively, accusing one of being a member of a hate-group?

QuentinSummers · 05/03/2018 18:43

I have someone who was a friend who I think has distanced herself from my terfiness. The cognitive dissonance when i did try to talk to her about it was palpable

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