Dear Sophie Walker...

[ArcheryAnnie]

I don't know if you or your staff will ever read this, but here goes.

I was really impressed that you came to the Women's Place meeting in London yesterday. I was sitting with a big group of MNers, to your left, and I don't think any of us had any idea at all that you were there. It can't have been easy for you, sitting in that room and hearing hundreds of feminists hiss and boo whenever the WEP was mentioned by any speaker. I can't imagine you ever envisaged that when you started up an avowedly feminist political party. You were brave to stand up after that.

I was sorry you didn't stay until the end. I understand it, but I think it's a real pity.

But, but, but. It's no use taking notes and saying you are listening, if you don't take any account of what women are actually saying to you. I don't know either you or Heather Brunskell-Evans personally, but what I see from the outside is that one of you is willing to be transparent about what went on in the WEP, and one of you is hiding behind procedure as a way of avoiding transparency. It's not enough for you to shout out "that's not true" when Heather is talking, if you aren't prepared to speak on this yourself. It was clear to me that Heather would give you permission to publish, so why don't you? Because the reality is that so many women - at that meeting and elsewhere - have been threatened and hounded and ostracised and censured for saying pretty unremarkable things (such as "maybe we should think carefully before sterilising gender nonconforming children") that of course we are going to take Heather's side. So many of us have been there already.

You say that the WE formulates policy slowly, and that you are listening, but we here have been trying to talk to you about this since at least November 2015, and the ill-fated Guest Post from Sandi Toksvig. How long do you expect to take on this? Sandi wrote "Join us, share your ideas" and then buggered off, not leaving even one party member of the then alleged 50K members to bother to discuss ideas and answer questions with us. (This is what we had to say then, in case you'd like to know: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2502963-Guest-post-Sandi-Toksvig-The-time-is-right-for-the-Womens-Equality-Party?pg=1)

That was more than two years ago. How long, seriously, do you expect us to give you to formulate a coherent policy on these issues, when in the meantime your actions have show again and again that you are prepared to throw women under the bus? As the mighty Datun said at yesterday's meeting, sadly after you'd left, "Shit, or get off the pot".

There was one point during the meeting last night where I consciously thought "blimey this is it - I'm witnessing the last gasp of the WEP before its unhappy demise". I don't know whether that's true. I don't know whether you can row back from this. But you are now, for good or for ill, a player on the political stage, and you have, still, the goodwill of many women. (Although not nearly as many as you had at the start, I can promise you that.) You got off on a bad foot with MNers right from the start, and we could reasonably expect to be your natural allies, even those of us with existing loyalties to other political parties. How can you hope to be a mainstream political party if you are unable to talk successfully with us?

Where do you go from here?

I would like to ask Sophie whether, as the mother of an autistic daughter, she is concerned about the prevalence of rapid onset gender dysphoria in autistic girls.

I would also like to ask Sandi how she feels about the cotton ceiling.

And I'd like to ask all of them for a proper definition of woman.

WEP, so disappointing. Bizarre, middle class policies, patronising attitude to voters, clearly had not a clue about what mumsnet really is. Fuck off. Do some listening. Come back when you give a shit about issues that affect women who don't live in Islington.

Then fuck off again. They really get my goat.

meanwhile one of WEP's TIM members thinks us having a discussion is cancer: twitter.com/antoniamichele7/status/968795332678246405

I'm afraid WEP has long been written off for me as primarily representing TIMs. Once a women's party is so compromised that it's automatically put the interests of people with penises first then there really isn't any point debating further.

There can be no middle ground here, no compromise is possible. Either you stand for 'everyone who identifies as a woman' - which means TIM front and centre, 'woman' now means 'TIM' and biological women get handmaidening (sorry, fuck that. Rebel not a slave). And every biological woman WILL come to realise that. If self ID goes through there is going to be a very angry, massive womens liberation movement going nuclear in the UK. It's already rumbling.

Or you get a grip and admit you've made a massive, massive mistake, and it'll be open season on the WEP by the TRA lobby. I don't envy you either position, I really don't.

It's a great, great shame, I had high hopes when the party was formed.

I agree, I was SO excited when the WEP was formed. And now... they just reinforce the sense that we can't speak, even in a very moderate way, about anything remotely gender critical. I have a teenager and it is clear that many of her peers now believe that if they do not perform femininity they are not female.

I'm a long standing member of WEP. I'm not a prolific poster on Mumsnet (mainly to keep my addiction in check) but I've been around a while.

I think it's unfair to expect Sophie Walker to turn around overnight and announce new policy in contravention to the constitution, it just doesn't work like that when you have several thousand members. As a member, I'd be pretty hacked off if that did happen regardless of what the policy was relating to.

Nonetheless I am also hacked off that WEP are continually hiding behind a constitution that was written around 6 months after the party formed at the one and only party conference and there has been no subsequent forum to address issues in it.

At the moment, we are in the middle of a leadership election which Sophie will no doubt win. (Sorry to Magda, I know you read Mumsnet and you are super but Sophie is just too high profile and feted to beat right now). This does mean we are in purdah at the moment so it's difficult to get anything done.

After the local elections in May (in which I have been selected to stand as a candidate and is taking up all of my spare time at the moment) there are a number of us working behind the scenes to get this front and centre at the next WEP conference in Sept.

It has been extremely difficult to raise any gender critical discussions thus far. But those of us who disagree with our constitution are increasingly finding one another and are hoping to enact change. I was really pleased to hear that Sophie made it to the women's place meeting. I was genuinely surprised even if she didn't say all the right things at least it feels like a start (finally).

Great letter Annie.

They need to realise ho scared we are for our daughters, particularly if they aren't performing girls correctly.

Sophie really, really needs to come and talk. So many of us are poised to support the WEP but can't if they don't know what a woman is.

Last time Sophie did a webchat it was a car crash. The problem is you can't keep both sides happy and she/WEP have boxed themselves in now. If they move to a more GC stance they are going against the wishes of their party members. If they don't then they don't represent their target audience and won't attract votes.
I think it's they end for WEP.

I think their time has come and gone - what they say and how they behave doesn't add up.

They say they are still making policy yet make HBE resign
They turn up to WPUK mtg and take notes - WTF!! If they aren't across the issues by now why not - exactly what are they doing?
If they don't have supporters feeding into them the concerns of women, why not and what are they there for?

They need to be set aside and effort put into a new political movement. I hate the pleading for them to get their act together - that's taking too much responsibility for them. They're grown women, they can ask for help from others - but instead they choose to go their own way and make decisions that fly in the face of their mission - I say again WTF. Really turn and walk the other way - life's too short - it's like trying to get an abusive partner to change - all the exisiting political parties are like that - see the opportunity…...

I can't see anything changing publicly until after the next conference. All Sophie can do is keep trotting out the crap about listening and taking notes.

I don't think it's fair to write off the party just yet. It's only been around 2 years and mistakes have been made - its embarrassing as a member - but I'd like to give the leadership a chance to fix it which can only really happen at conference.

Establishing a political party is not straightforward and I genuinely believe it will be easier to fix what's wrong (and keep what's right) than to start over.

The HBE situation was handled really badly but it has been helpful to raise awareness internally.

I think, what? 90%? of women (not just WEP members but all women) have no idea that they could be about to lose all exclusions in the equality act and what that means. They have no idea what a GRC is or how to get one or how that might change and what that means.

What WEP needs most right now is diversity of thinking so we can step out of the white middle class thing and the best way for that to happen is if everyone on these threads joins and comes to conference and votes on the motion to change the constitution.

Oh and I see no value in Sophie doing another webchat now. She has to tow the party line (literally) even if the party line is wrong. Else she'll have to HBE herself....

I think it's unfair to expect Sophie Walker to turn around overnight and announce new policy in contravention to the constitution, it just doesn't work like that when you have several thousand members.

Mate, nobody outside of WEP gives two ticks for its constitution. THAT is the bloody problem. And if WEP has a constitution that mandates the sacking of Heather for mild comments about drastic medical intervention in children on BBC radio and suitable for broadcasting AT TEA TIME, then what kind of party for women is WEP? A useless one, that's what.

Surely even members can see that?

Agreed RNBrie that there's no point in another webchat now. But maybe once the internal party elections are over, and maybe whenever the next conference is.

Speaking of conference - they've only had one conference, right? In 2016? I've just read the conference decisions document and can't see any of the "WE recognise that gender isn't a binary and you can identify as any tomfool gender you want to" nonsense that made it into the 2017 WEP manifesto. Am I missing something, and was it really there in the 2016 decisions? And if not, then how did it make it's way into the manifesto, if conference is the ultimate decision-making body of the party? (And the sacking of H B-E seems to contravene that statement about conference being the ultimate decision-making body, too, as she was appointed at the conference.)

From what I understand, although the complaints came after the radio program, what HBE said on Moral Maze wasn't the problem, but what she said on social media was at it contravened the party line. She was asked to stand down as a party spokesperson which makes sense to me if she's not towing the party line and she chose to resign from the party. I could have all that wrong because the information coming out of central office was shit.

It does not mean that HBE was wrong to say what she said but it just makes no sense for her to remain a spokesperson for a party she doesn't agree with.

I don't expect anyone outside WEP to care much about it's constitution. Why would you? Unfortunately Sophie Walker does have to care what it says if any of us want ever want the party to be taken seriously. She can't just make it up as she goes along.

I still take the view that changing an existing party is easier than starting a new one. And I reserve the right to change that view if another party does crop up that I can get behind but I won't be starting it.

@ArcheryAnnie you're right about the last conference being in 2016. I wasn't there, I didn't know it was happening despite being a paid up member at the time. I will be at the next one which is 7/8/9 Sept, location TBD.

I actually don't know if the gender recognition piece was specifically voted on at conference in 2016. I have just been assuming it was because Sophie keeps hiding behind "what our members voted for at conference" whenever she's asked about it. It will piss me off if it wasn't actually decided on there!! I'll see if I can find out.

The complaint process is a formal thing done by executive committee made up of officers of the party. They did their investigation and made the decision regarding HBE being sacked as a spokesperson. They've repeatedly refused to release the justification for it under the premise of protecting everyone's privacy. It's pissed off a lot of members - especially as i understand HBE has now given her permission?! Anyway, it's been a good catalyst for the gender critical among us to find each other and start to mobilise.

RNBrie
Well clearly changing an existing party is not easier than starting a new one, as Heathers experience has shown - and your reaction to her challenge.
If there is no room for even the mildest disagreement over such a very serious issue, then WEP is not fit for purpose. If every WEP member and representative can only spout the manifesto, discussion has been stifled.

I cant think of any issue that affects women that is not serious, contentious and most likely polarising as a result. Women need to be robust and fearless.
Although abortion and FGM are as contentious as the trans issue, I don't see women publicly forced to toe the party line over them. We can all see this issue is different.

I noted that in their hustings for leader, the chair of the meeting issued strict instructions to delegates to only read the question on their card as they had been pre moderated. My assumption was to ensure that no one asked awkward questions - like define woman.
As the London meeting the other night and this board demonstrate, feminist action is diverse - it always has been and that is its strength.

The fact that the WEP have taken a stance where commenting on harm being done to children can lead to expulsion shows how they are being run by a misogynistic cabal - they're just unfit for purpose.

Anything WEP says smacks of hypocrisy now. They want to talk about sex discrimination they need to recognise sex as the axis of oppression.

As an outsider looking in now it seems like its the Sophie Walker party at the moment, the notion that she will retain leadership/can't be successfully challenged.

Parties make mistakes and come back, they make U-Turns but how long are people meant to put up with the mistakes for? Has it not been throwing women under the bus almost as long as it has existed? It hardly has a proven track record in which we can recognise this as a blip because of 'bubble' leadership. Nah mate.

@UpstartCrow I see your point about not being able to discuss it and that being a bad thing. It IS discussed between members but you are right that most of us haven't felt confident standing up as individuals to speak out against the party. That, as you say, is a really bad thing.

I think if a party spokesperson for FGM or reproductive rights started disagreeing with party policy she would also be expected to stand down?! That said, HBE wasn't the spokesperson for Transgender issues, but VAWG.

I was sceptical about being able to fundamentally change anything in the party and have been considering resigning until Sophie attended the Women's Place meeting. The fact she went and "is listening" has made me want to push on till conference.

@shedalight I don't know for sure but I assumed the pre-moderated thing was to give Magda a chance. She has almost no public speaking experience, especially compared to Sophie.

I have to go now, I've got an appt but I'll be back this afternoon. I'm not very senior in the party at all and this is all just my opinion. I recognise I'm a pretty lone voice as a WEP member on Mumsnet! But I really just wanted to highlight that there are WEP members that disagree with the current stance. And pretty sure Sophie reads threads addressed to her!

Women and girls issues, like DV, FGM, abortion, widespread sexual harassment and assault by men, are all uncomfortable serious issues, that need fearless gobby intelligent women prepared to challenge. Not people who are scampering about, afraid to state men aren't women, and don't experience the same issues as us.
If you're meekly accepting straight off the bat that men are women on their say so, and allowing them to dictate to you, the party isn't fit for purpose.
Womens Equality Party, yeah right.

RNBrie I don't mean to be mean or harsh and I can see that you are a decent person who means well. But this is Politics 101. Waffle about party procedure is of zero interest to anyone outside the party. In fact, waffle about procedure and secrecy surrounding it is exactly what puts people off political parties. It's blindingly obvious to anyone outside WEP that the party is an exercise in (dysfunctional) bureaucracy and nothing more. Regardless of whether WEP is for actual women or anyone who decides to say they're a woman on every other Tuesday morning, a party must have more than procedural waffle to offer supporters.

Not aimed at you RNBrie btw.
Just a general rant

@LangCleg i dont see how a party can be a political party without the bureaucracy. It's the only party never joined one before because I agree it's offputting. But now I am a member of a political party I can see how it happens. Most of it is electoral commission and you have to play by the rules if you want to be in the game.

And in fairness i wasn't intending to offer political waffle but to try and explain why I don't think Sophie can about-face without consulting the membership which she can't do because we're in purdah - which is back to the waffle. Sorry.

I don't think you were harsh either for the record. I don't mind having WEP flaws pointed out to me, I'm not blind to them. Currently I still come down on the side that we are doing more good than harm. But always happy to be corrected!