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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Only 2 days left to oppose changes to gender laws in Scotland

71 replies

DoctorW · 27/02/2018 14:42

Only two days left to complete the Scottish consultation questionnaire. I have made a short video explaining why it's important to fill it in. Please watch and share as widely as possible. Don't leave this up to Scottish women. Use this opportunity to speak. Don't waste it.

Deadline 5pm Thursday 1st March
vimeo.com/257680981

fairplayforwomen.com/scotland/

OP posts:
Judder · 28/02/2018 21:56

I found this scary article that says lots of women's organisations such as Scottish Women's Aid have endorsed the changes to gender laws, and now I am more concerned than ever. How could they? I suspect the public spokespeople feel pressured to agree, but hopefully they are anonymously giving feedback that is honest.

www.commonspace.scot/articles/12402/what-you-need-know-scotland-s-women-s-sector-speaks-out-gender-recognition-trans

BearFoxBear · 28/02/2018 22:06

Done. I gave some seriously intense and lengthy responses and had a rant about the whole thing at the end. I think they'll get my point.

WheresTheEvidence · 28/02/2018 22:15

Done

LaundryLaundryMoreFingLaundry · 28/02/2018 22:18

Done. Now I'm experiencing a strange combination of relief at having been able to do something concrete and constructive while also having elevated blood pressure as a result of the rage that accompanied my response to each question. I'm fairly confident that will come across. If just one official reading my response Googles "autogynephilia" or "cotton ceiling" and peak transes, it will have been worth it. Now for some deep breaths, then to bed.

Fairyflaps · 28/02/2018 22:36

Done!

Terflonnonstickpan · 01/03/2018 00:11

Sanity breaks out in France

www.bioethicsobservatory.org/2018/02/supreme-court-ban-assignment-neutral-gender/24646

OldCrone · 01/03/2018 01:07

That person is actually intersex, and wanted it to be recognised that they are neither male nor female.
www.rt.com/news/387284-france-neutral-gender-court/

Boxesandbuttons · 01/03/2018 02:28

Done! Thanks for all the guidance from fair play for women. And reminders from everyone else.

No one else I know has heard anything about this and I found out very late and only due to mumsnet. Hardly a consultation!

TheBakeryQueen · 01/03/2018 06:54

Done!

VulvaNotVagina · 01/03/2018 08:39

I am confused by the question stating "Should legal gender recongnition stop being a ground for divorce?"
Are they really implying you shouldn't want to divorce your spouse if they transition?

Afternoon · 01/03/2018 09:46

Done

Datun · 01/03/2018 10:31

VulvaNotVagina

Yes. It's known colloquially as spousal veto.

So a woman who marries a man is having a heterosexual relationship. But if he transitions, she is now considered to be in a homosexual relationship. Legally.

And they are saying it shouldn't be grounds for divorce.

She should be forced to consider herself in a 'lesbian' relationship (with a man, who will almost always be fully intact anatomically).

Transactivists spin it, saying why should we have to get permission from our spouse to transition?

Which of course they don't. They just have to acknowledge that if the woman does not wish to be remain in the relationship as a result, she is entitled to a divorce on that basis.

For an insight into how this can play out in real life, take a look at this thread from women at the coalface, as it were.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

One of the most damaging aspects concerning the issue of spousal veto, and many of the other issues, is that men who are married, attracted to women, fully intact and have fathered children, are highly unlikely to transition because of gender dysphoria.

Transwomen fall into two categories. Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) - generally with gender dysphoria.

And autogynephiles - men who have a compulsive cross dressing fetish that can get really out of hand.
Very distressing for their spouses, as they fetishise their wife's 'womanhood' for themselves.

Transactivism has been incredibly effective in either blurring the distinction, or maintaining there is no distinction.

But it's notable that most homosexual transsexuals, are completely against the idea of self ID.

It makes a mockery of their gender dysphoria, their status as transwomen and will deprive them of therapy (since gender dysphoria will be removed as a criteria - along with all the other criteria).

Self ID does not benefit them, they do not support it, but no one is listening.

At The woman's place UK meeting on Tuesday, three transsexuals stood up saying not in our name. (Others post in feminist chat, saying the same thing).

They are abused and targeted relentlessly and get called Truscum by the autogynephile activists.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 01/03/2018 10:49

I worry this might result in women being denied legal aid for a divorce etc and struggling to get free from the situation described on that thread.
Horrendous.

Will adversely affect women who don't have money for a solicitor. In Scotland you still can get legal aid in some circumstances but it's tough and you have to have a solicitor who is up for appealing.

Datun · 01/03/2018 11:06

In Scotland you still can get legal aid in some circumstances but it's tough and you have to have a solicitor who is up for appealing.

There are all these little aspects, that are simply not being considered, or are not even known about.

A common reaction to women seeking therapy over their relationship to an autogynephile, is for the therapist to take their husband's side!

Despite him suddenly wanting to be subordinated in sex, wearing a basque and flying into a rage if his needs aren't met.

The woman is told to understand, think of him, and suck it up.

The difference between that, and the normal reaction of therapists to abusive relationships, is stark.

It would come as no surprise that (hopefully only male) lawyers follow the same sexist thought patterns.

Which ever way you look at it, this ideology benefits men, and damages women. There doesn't seem to be a downside for men at all.

But it's incredibly detrimental to women.

OldCrone · 01/03/2018 11:10

I am confused by the question stating "Should legal gender recongnition stop being a ground for divorce?"
Are they really implying you shouldn't want to divorce your spouse if they transition?

You could mention that in a same-sex marriage or civil partnership, if the non-transitioning spouse is not allowed a divorce or dissolution, that this amounts to a type of gay conversion therapy, since they have forced a gay person to stay in what is now a heterosexual relationship.

TheRagingGirl · 01/03/2018 11:13

I've done it. Like others, some of those questions were vile.

For example, the possibility of removing gender reassignment as grounds for divorce?!!!!!

Oh yes, let's go back to the 1850s on divorce and lock women into marriages with potential/actual abusers. There's an argument to say that having to stay married to an autogynephilic man is a form of coercive control, which - last time I looked - is actually illegal.

Gosh that survey made me spit.

2rebecca · 01/03/2018 11:28

I did it. I put "once at birth" as my answer to question 3 and on question 16 elaborated on my feeling that it was all nonsense and reinforced sexist stereotypes that feminism was trying to move away from and that people should be able to express their emotions and personality without needing a gender or sex change.
In the how happy are you with this consultation question I said I was very unhappy that it was happening at all and thought it was bad for feminism, women's sport and safe places for women and was pandering to a vocal group of men.
The whole feeling like a woman and really being a woman is nonsense and relies on sexist assumptions of what women are and feel. Apart from the men who say they are women and then win women's sporting events I don't see what practical difference it makes to the lives of the other people (mainly men) with gender dysphoria. What things can you then do when your gender is reassigned that you couldn't do before? Most jobs are open to both sexes, most hobbies are open to both, you can have same sex relationships. You can be artistic as a man and scientific as a woman. It is all nonsense.

Collidascope · 01/03/2018 11:28

I am confused by the question stating "Should legal gender recongnition stop being a ground for divorce?"
Are they really implying you shouldn't want to divorce your spouse if they transition?

I struggled with answering this question. If I believed that people really can transition, then clearly, as a straight woman, I should not have to stay in a relationship once my husband has become a woman.
But I don't believe sex can be changed, and I'm gender critical, so surely if my husband decides he's going to grow his hair long, wear makeup and dresses, I should be okay with that? The only thing I should have an issue with is that if he really thinks he's become a woman, it shows he is nuts or a bit thick. But actually, that wouldn't be the only issue. I'd be very unattracted to him if he started dressing 'as a woman' because the gender stereotypes are too fixed in my head that that isn't what men do. Grrr.
I can't remember how I answered it, but I did call on them to invest their time and energy to undoing gender stereotypes rather than strengthening them.

2rebecca · 01/03/2018 11:37

It would be a huge personality change if my husband started wearing dresses and make up. I'm not a believer in the life sentence view of marriage so if my husband had any major personality change that affected our relationship adversely I would want a divorce.
Believing he was a woman would be delusional though. It is bizarre to suggest people shouldn't be able to instantly end marriages over such a big change.
In general I'd favour no fault divorces with a 3 month period unilaterally for everyone.

Nikitasol · 01/03/2018 12:32

Deadline for consultation about the GRA in Scotland is 1st March. Anyone around the country can complete this however. Please do!

consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/

letsgetserious · 01/03/2018 15:39

Done!

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