what thread was talking about that new trans in schools booket

[Branleuse]

the one that all the TRA were losing their shit over. Im trying to find the thread. I can find the PDF of the leaflet, but i cant find the discussion about it

fox news is a mouth piece for the far right.

catholic anything has an agenda - I say this as a former catholic.

Ah OK thanks for the tip 😁

I know a left wing catholic, male, who is anti abortion and anti gay marriage.

Not a problem busy

busy I was googling both the Canadian and Californian legislation around misgendering earlier and it's difficult (impossible?) to find a news article or journalistic piece about implications it that isn't conservative right wing or far right. Any left wing or centrist publications tend to praise it as progressive or just repeat Stonewall press releases etc...

This in itself is an issue because it should be a talking point across the political spectrum. A law that makes stating material reality a potential crime has potentially wide ramifications.

Of course because only the right wing allow dissenting voices around the issue criticism of the legislation immediately is put in the box of right wing, trumptard, nazi hater speech.

It's a similar issue with what is happening here with the Guardian vs conservative leaning press.

Laws around free speech and a culture change disproportionately affecting women and girls shouldn't be framed as a left/right thing.

Just to add I was googling it because I wanted to link something here as you did then realised it wasn't going to be a great idea because the source would be right wing and it's a difficult line to tread when you share concerns with people who other wise are not natural allies.

You're a bit more aware than I am. I just didn't realise the implications of those sites. However the fact is it has been implemented.

So the left is censoring any objections. I can't believe it's only right wing religious people objecting in America. It isn't here. But reading the Guardian you would think the left is completely on board. Especially the way they moderate out any gender critical comments.

We need a thread about this to be honest because I am really uncomfortable with forcing people to say things that they know to be untrue. I find this a really sinister part of this whole movement.

According to equality law in the UK, which applies to both children and adults, misgendering is a contravention.

As is not using their new name.

I should imagine it's more in relation to speaking to them in person, insisting on calling them sir, for instance.

And Lily Madigan is not a part of this conversation, as far as we know.

Also, exemptions that you want to invoke generally rely on the phrase 'a proportionate means to legitimate aim'.

I should think there is every justification that referencing Lily's birth sex is a proportionate means to legitimate aim, given Lily's outstandingly poor behaviour towards women. And the reasons why.

Also, aside from pronouns, there's no reason to not be able to talk about it, saying Lily is a man. That can't be a contravention, because they are a man.

And yes, I completely agree, that a law which essentially forces people to lie, (pronouns) is a direct violation of free speech. The government cannot mandate you to lie. Except it does.

I'd love to see this tested in court. The concept of free speech, versus the equality act demanding you lie.

@busyboysmum it's made trickier with US articles because their political spectrum in general is further right than ours so something like Fox News over here is what we would consider to be far right. Our version of right wing, The Times for example is rather tame in comparison. That's without taking into account the US press that has a strong religious bias.

It's a bit of a minefield and it's easy to slip up and leave ourselves open to accusations of zealotry etc..

I did it the other day, I linked an interesting video I saw on twitter then later realised it was created and linked by someone whose other views I really didn't like. However it still remains a good video but I would have thought twice if I had realised.

A reminder to always check your sources I suppose and it also exposes the difficulty of social media where it's hard to show agreement with someone on one subject without the accusation of aligning with certain factions that don't represent you on the whole. It's why we all end up in our own little echo chambers if not careful.

I'm not really sure what the more moderate or centre position is in the US re gender politics, I get the feeling they are keeping their heads down.

Apologies in advance if this is a derail, but about the misgendering law in California. Here's the text of the California bill, it's specifically about nursing homes, SB 219:

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219

A lot of it does seem to be completely reasonable non-discrimination type stuff, but there's a section about transgender residents being assigned to rooms according to gender id, not sex; and a section about restrooms.

(I'm a nurse. Don't live in California and don't work in a long term care facility, but having bed assignment by self-stated gender rather than sex enshrined in law makes me nervous.)

But anyway, the pertinent section on misgendering:

(5) Willfully and repeatedly fail to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns.

It's reasonable to expect the staff of a nursing home to address the residents the way they want to be addressed. It's rude not to. Staff rudeness should be dealt with internally by management, though, not with state law.

Violation of the law is a misdemeanor. Most likely a fine (article on Politico said $1,000), but jail time is not off the table.

Thanks Luna.

I agree I would expect that to be a disciplinary matter and think it's really odd that it's been made law.

I was the one that wrote the Michael Finnegan riff. I apologise if it contributed to the deletion of the thread. Someone posted a poem about him and I thought "I can do better".

I think it would be good to clarify that it wasn't deleted because of misgendering because really whether we can be forced to accept that someone is a woman or not is at the heart of this issue. and if we can't refer to him according to how we view the matter then that's as much as to say Lily Madigan's view takes precedence.

A nasty bullying tone now. twitter.com/madigan_lily/status/965325635345317889

As opposed to...

I'm very uncomfortable with mandated language. It is a very small step away from mandating thought - you have to think before speaking after all.

I know people say using preferred pronouns is the polite thing to do, but why are we the ones who have to be so polite all the time? I'm simplifying things, I know.

My reality and childhood is erased if I go along with the law. Mentally I can't do it. So I won't. For the sake of my health.

but why are we the ones who have to be so polite all the time? I'm simplifying things, I know.

No you're not, it is simple. It's about being fair to people who have a protected characteristic. And that includes women.

TRAs would have you believe that their projected characteristic trumps ours. It doesn't.

Well I don't want to be polite about this, so I'll keep kicking against it.

I don't think in fairness to HQ that it was because of misgendering, I think it was more likely to be that it was a (with some justification) angry thread that had a number of posts crossing the line into personal attacks. The poetry - well it was based on undeniable facts and while I was uncomfortable reading it I did ask myself if I'd be that uncomfortable about a limerick or satire poem about May or Johnson or Gove or Corbyn, or any other public figure. But a thread that was turning into such a personal attack on any one of those people probably would end up being deleted.

I'm getting angrier as the months go on, I'm getting less patient with the nonsense, I'm getting less willing to always have to be polite and above reproach and 'be the better person' when the provocation gets more serious week by week. But yes, as someone mentioned, screenshots of that thread will probably have been taken and could be used to put people off taking what MN posters have to say on women's rights and self ID. That doesn't help.

I actually will use opposite sex pronouns sometimes, as a courtesy. But I am deeply, deeply unhappy with being forced to do so whether through legal means, through online harassment campaigns or through social media policies de-platforming me if I do.

I don't believe trying to force this is just about politeness. Given everything else being pushed it's fairly obvious to me that it's part of a wider goal of suppressing any acknowledgement of differences.

When this comes up, I usually get reminded of Jordan Peterson, who spoke against Canada's Bill C-16 (which criminalises you not addressing someone by the pronouns they tell you to use) getting ambushed. In my experience, this is how debates usually go.

I did ask myself if I'd be that uncomfortable about a limerick or satire poem about May or Johnson or Gove or Corbyn, or any other public figure. But a thread that was turning into such a personal attack on any one of those people probably would end up being deleted.

I disagree, I think you could say quite a bit of stuff on here about any of those 4 without a thread being deleted. Mostly I think because it would go unreported because people expect a degree of piss taking about politicians. Rightly or wrongly the UK has always had a culture of satire (Spitting Image).

The reason posts about Lily get reported I suspect is mostly because Lily's trans status trumps the fact they are a public official.

Oldman I've seen that video a couple of times and I always laugh at the bit where the guy jumps in saying I am a person of colour after the women filming is trying to drag POC into the argument.

The whole video reminds me of a real life twitter spat.

• oops probably misgendered there I think the woman had particular pronouns so probably wasn't a woman.

This is how stupid it is!

Wow he was very calm and patient with them. I'll have to have a look at some of his videos.

Jordan Peterson has the sort of iron patience I can only dream of. He's a smart guy, very interesting and one of the most frequently misrepresented speakers I know of.

The interesting thing in particular is that he didn't seek out this attention. He was just a good but unknown academic who refused to budge on an issue. And the more they attacked him for refusing to budge, the more attention and support they got him. And the issue wasn't refusing to use preferred pronouns by the way. It was his objection that he should be legally compelled to.