Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

----
CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
fishdogpancakes · 16/02/2018 20:46

I'm leaving little notes in the ladies toilets where ever I go, just spreading the word...

OlennasWimple · 16/02/2018 21:00

I don't think we shoudl court the support of people like Katie Hopkins, but if she chooses to put out stuff that helps expose the lunacy of some of the TRA movement that is obviously a good thing

fishdogpancakes · 16/02/2018 21:19

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-women-support-decline-why-brexit-bullying-transgender-rights-a8213576.html

We are definitely being noticed so why are the politicians not coming to talk to us?

AngryAttackKittens · 16/02/2018 21:23

Thought that just occurred to me - the prisons association tried to warn Miller's commission that was looking into the GRC about male prisoners transitioning for what it thought were dodgy reasons, right? So that would be another group to try to pull in and get them to add their concerns to the pile in terms of why self-ID is terrible policy.

Destinysdaughter · 16/02/2018 21:34

I had another thought, I'm not a member of the WI, but was thinking about contacting my local one to see if I could give a talk to them about the GRA and the potential consequences of it. I read somewhere on these threads that the WI is now open to anyone who self identifies as a woman, so they may not be open to it. Worth a try?

Terfinater · 16/02/2018 21:43

What sort of notes Fish?

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 21:48

Hi everyone I have updated the document, taking on your feedback, here
It obviously needs more work, but I think most of it is there as something that could be turned into a printable leaflet, shareable PDF, and form the basis for a petition etc. If anyone fancies collaborating on shaping it, that would be great. Smile

I don't think it needs to be the 'Mumsnet position' or anything - just one approach. We could systematically target different organisations eg TopSHop, and/or ask public figures or organisations to come out in support of it and sign up to it.

I kept the focus narrow to give it the best chance, but would be happy to support any number of other campaigns around this eg around medical ethics of sterilising gender non-conforming kids.

Just some thoughts...

AngryAttackKittens · 16/02/2018 21:58

Has any group/org started talking about a boycott of TopShop? Because that's something that should probably happen, and I know it's been discussed here.

thebewilderness · 16/02/2018 22:08

Well stated Guardian Lion. Thank you.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 22:10

Mayday for Women petitioned outside soon after the Travis business, and people on this thread I think showed reticence about targeting a business that Mumsnet might get advertising revenue from... or maybe I got the wrong end of the stick

fishdogpancakes · 16/02/2018 22:10

Links to Mumsnet Threads and public articles like the spectator one.

Only small ones and completely inoffensive. Along the lines of "Do you know it Self ID becomes law then this toilets space becomes open to any man who says he feels like a woman."

One liners that will probably get binned but it feels good to do something physical IYKWIM

Haven't put up posters yet as I was going to read up on the law about it.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 22:11

Thanks bewilderness

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 22:14

btw I really appreciate everyone's help - and DoctorW that post really clarified so much - the history is always what is needed to understand it.

LangCleg · 16/02/2018 22:24

Thought that just occurred to me - the prisons association tried to warn Miller's commission that was looking into the GRC about male prisoners transitioning for what it thought were dodgy reasons, right?

It was the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists. Here's the part about prisons:

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

Full evidence they gave here:

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.html

This org was not called back to give evidence in person and nothing from their written evidence, including the excerpt on prisons, was included in Miller's final report.

RoderickRules · 16/02/2018 22:26

How about, printing out some leaflets and going to Topshop flagship store one Saturday?

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 22:28

I'd be up for that - maybe we should get in touch with Mayday for Women to see if they have any materials (eg - their petition) we could use?

AngryAttackKittens · 16/02/2018 22:30

Thanks, LangCleg. Definitely sounds like getting them into the loop would be a good idea, and prisons should be a fairly high priority anyway in that the risk to female inmates is high and the potential for showing the public why some of us are so concerned about self-ID is even higher.

Destinysdaughter · 16/02/2018 22:36

I tweeted the thread on here about pp being scared to talk about it in their line of work to James Kirkup, the Spectator journalist who wrote about the issues with the GRA, it got quite a few retweets and some shocked comments. I've tweeted Jeremy Vine, exhorting him to discuss the reasons why women's support for the Labour Party has gone down, referencing the Spectator article and the MN thread. I tweeted the new female editor of Newsnight asking her to cover this issue.

I just want this to be discussed in the mainstream as I think if pp really understood what it means in reality, they would be v concerned. I just think, to everyone, do what you can in your own sphere of influence, read as much as you can to be well informed and get the message out there!

AngryAttackKittens · 16/02/2018 22:39

"Each one, teach one" as the old saying goes. Or more if you can.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 22:40

Well done!

LangCleg · 16/02/2018 22:50

Definitely sounds like getting them into the loop would be a good idea, and prisons should be a fairly high priority anyway in that the risk to female inmates is high and the potential for showing the public why some of us are so concerned about self-ID is even higher.

Indeed. And worth mentioning it in conversations IRL and online. A popular TRA line is "everything's fine in Ireland" - good response is to point in the direction of that evidence and inform them that Ireland's prisons are exempt from self-ID and remain sex segregated.

MyLovelyHorseAndNewNameNow · 16/02/2018 23:43

Absolutely good idea to focus on prisons.

And thanks to all for their work on this.

Destinysdaughter · 17/02/2018 00:09

I'm up for being VERY persistent about this as I think it's so important and if it doesn't get stopped in its tracks we'll be in real trouble. I don't have to worry about speaking out at work so I don't have anything to lose, whereas I'm aware that others do ( as evidenced by the thread about how it's affecting many pp in their workplace, which I found utterly shocking, I really had no idea it was that bad).

I've done a lot of reading about the issues recently and the more I read the worse it gets. It feels like a real life Handmaid's Tale happening in slow motion in front of our very eyes...

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 17/02/2018 00:17

GuardianLions
A common misperception is that a GRC confirms the person udnerwent surgical remodelling of the sex organs

Reads wrong to me, should this not be

A common misconception is that a GRC confirms the person underwent surgical remodelling of the sex organs

I don't know, grammar is not my strong suit but misperception just reads dodgy. Might be me though Grin

Maybe add in rapists to the following line too

Male murderers are currently incaracerated with women

Otherwise, absolutely fantastic document. Right to the point and easy to understand. Great work.

I am also up for actual hard work on this topic. I do think its seriously important as if any ofthese changes are put into law, it will be disastrous for women and girls, and transsexual people too.

SecretsRsecrets · 17/02/2018 00:32

I'm a bit late to this thread, and haven't read the full thread...

However, if it hasn't been said, I'd recommend caution. Datun, OvaHere, Hairy and many others are brilliant posters who have 'peaked' many on these boards. I'd be very concerned about them being outed if this plan is not legitimate and possibly a way to get to the main strong posters to destroy these threads.

Maybe I'm a suspicious bugger, but I'm a little unsure how on an anonymous site, someone is taken at face value for being a RL politician. Is there a way to verify?

Sorry, I don't mean to be all conspiracy theory, but these days with all the vitriol and violence, I would advise protecting yourselves. All the best.