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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
Terfinater · 16/02/2018 14:48

I've found even the most pro self id supporters cannot continue when you shift the focus onto children's safety and children's spaces

Nobody likes the idea of men being able to self identify into the swimming baths changing rooms where little girls are.

Women are expected to take the risk. Children arent. I really think we need to shift the focus onto children's safety as well. Because nobody gives a shit about women.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 14:59

Yes indeed

Terfinater · 16/02/2018 15:00

I also think we need to stop expressing sympathy for those with dysphoria. We know in the cases of Tim's body dysphoria is caused by either agp or being homosexual. Do we really need to feel sorry for gay men and let them in our spaces? If so why?

Is being a gay man worse than having cancer? Worse than having a disability or being homeless? I don't think so.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 15:03

Completely agree. Why the f is everyone acting like dysphoria is the worst thing that can happen to a person. I'd rather have it over schizophrenia!

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 15:04

Are there any petition sites where you an really customise the front page and make it look really good?

Cascade220 · 16/02/2018 15:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mirialis · 16/02/2018 15:09

I'd quite like to see a survey (but it would get called propaganda) doing the rounds with very simple questions e.g. photos of various people (Men, TIMS, women of all different styles/presentations etc. - maybe a famous brocialist in a "this is what a feminist" looks like t-shirt!) and the question: which of these are women?

a) 1-3 (or whatever number)
b) 4-6 etc.
c) there is no way of knowing

Do you think it is important to have changing facilities, medical spaces, rape and domestic violence refuges etc. that are designated for woman and girls?

How many of these people would you feel happy to see in a changing room at your local swimming pool that is designated for girls and women?

If the person in picture a did not want to use the men's changing rooms, do you think they should use::

a) the women's changing room
b) a unisex changing room

and so on.... simple questions with some visuals (but not OTT steph-on-knee or whatever photos)

These are not thought though at all by the way but you get the gist.

DoctorW · 16/02/2018 15:32

Hello everyone - I've been reading Datun and PenilsInSpace's comments and I'd like to join the discussion and see if I can help in any way

My name is Nicola Williams and I run the Fair Play For Women website. I've decided to be publicly 'out' as someone who challenges the trans narrative and to dedicate my time to this as a volunteer. FPFW has no political allegiance and no agenda other than to be a voice of ordinary women in the debate. My recent aim has been to make the FPFW website a reliable information source for women interested in knowing the facts. I've written guidance documents and factsheets on the Equality Law and Gender Recognition Act. I have also written a lot about the impact of GRA reforms on women's prisons and have raised this in a written submission to the Justice Select Committee Inquiry into prison planning. I also recently met with officials at the Government Equality Office to raise the concerns women have about GRA reforms. It's these officials who will be drafting the GRA reform consultation document (expected to be out by the Spring).

So my reason for joining the discussion today is two-fold. Firstly to make you aware of the information available on www.fairplayforwomen.com in particular the legal aspects. But secondly to pick up on what Datun has said about the need for women as foot soldiers and to change the tide of public opinion. Equality Law already allows organisations and shops etc to provide single-sex spaces and services - and for that to really mean single SEX. It is not illegal to exclude a male-born transgender person from a female only space even if they have a GRC themselves and are now legally female. The law exists to protect female only spaces but is simply not being applied. Businesses are not invoking these legal exemptions because they think their customer base doesn't want them to. The translobby have done a good job in convincing everyone that transwomen are women and that everyone now agrees. I'm not so sure. There are times when female-only must mean biological females only. Groups like Fair Play For Women can help raise awareness but what's really going to make the difference is women getting the message out there and making sure these business know we're not happy. The laws are all in place to be used - its public opinion that has to shift so the laws get used.

Mumsnet has the membership and the clout to do what no other group can do and that's to start shifting public opinion. FPFW has the information and the platform but you have the voices and the feet. Is there something we could do together to really push things forward?

DaisyDrip · 16/02/2018 15:39

Well DoctorW you sound just what I'm looking for. None political is vital for me as this needs ALL woman and taking the fight to ALL political parties.

So pleased you posted today - Thank you!

Off to read your website.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 15:42

Thanks Doc great to have your support.

Terfinater · 16/02/2018 15:44

It is not illegal to exclude a male-born transgender person from a female only space even if they have a GRC themselves and are now legally female

I didn't know this. I don't have the legal knowledge that others do. Is there a template letter somewhere?

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 15:47

Indeed - I think that JJ s legal advice on the AWS was that GRC = legal woman and therefore cannot be excluded..

Is there something her lawyers missed?

Cuntysnark · 16/02/2018 15:48

DoctorW Do you have local groups? I think I've hit trough trans today and could do with a physical presence

SuffolkNWhat · 16/02/2018 15:49

I have found the Fair Play website brilliant for fact checking and it has helped peak a few GC friends. Being non-political is the way forward I believe, as women as a class we are an undeniable force and party politics will only serve to cause divisions.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 16/02/2018 16:04

Thank you DoctorW, will look at your site Smile

PencilsInSpace · 16/02/2018 16:06

Welcome DoctorW I love the FPFW site, it's an incredible resource. I especially find the legal briefing pages useful.

This page has an excellent analysis of the different sex based exceptions in the Equality Act. They don't all work the same which is why it can seem inconsistent.

JenniferJames · 16/02/2018 16:10

Great to see Dr. Nic here... her report on trans prisoners is an eye opener. From what I can remember... almost half of the self-identifiers currently in men's prisons are held in facilities exclusively for sex offenders?

Fair Play For Women another vital resource and organisation in the fight against self-id.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/02/2018 16:12

Out there suggestion but does anyone have a willing male patsy, willing to put on a dress and self ID their way onto an AWS to show up how open to abuse the system is?

PencilsInSpace · 16/02/2018 16:13

I like your PDF GuardianLions but it needs to mention why single sex spaces are under threat. It's tempting to not want to mention gender at all as it's such a contested term but I don't think we can get away from it as both the GRA and the EA refer to it specifically (although the GRA muddles it up with sex).

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 16/02/2018 16:18

Out there suggestion but does anyone have a willing male patsy, willing to put on a dress and self ID their way onto an AWS to show up how open to abuse the system is?

Doesn't even need to put on a frock Red.

I'm convinced that Danielle Muscato is doing precisely this btw - showing up 'self ID' as the crock of shit that it is.

Everyonematters · 16/02/2018 16:19

I love this thread and I love you all.

GuardianLions · 16/02/2018 16:28

Thanks pencils - I am taking on board everything and will stick up a new draft with added bits.

Cismyfatarse1 · 16/02/2018 16:28

I think we ought to be identifying our way into some men's spaces - en mass.

Top Man changing rooms.

M&S men.

Some men's clubs (golf?).

Safety in numbers- maybe 2/3 of us st a time.

LangCleg · 16/02/2018 16:31

DoctorW - fantastic to see you here. FPFW resources have really improved my understanding and also been invaluable when talking to friends and family about what is happening and how the consequences could affect them.

As a personal thing, I have resolved to insist on same sex HCPs for any intimate medical care I need - smear tests, etc. And I intend to ask the changing room attendant each time I want to try on clothes whether or not their space is single sex. If not, I won't try on the clothes.

These are small and individual things but they might make a difference if orgs and businesses faced them every day. And I'm an uppity old bag so I don't care about making fusses.

As to working together in a larger purpose - I'm up for anything practical that others suggest.

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 16/02/2018 16:34

This woman has also taken on both India Willoughby & Aimee Challenor on TV & radio. Welcome to MN, Nic.