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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 20:42

Can women's spaces please take back what is theirs and be expanded to include breastfeeding areas, so we can have disabled spaces back? Can Men and women's spaces also take their baby changing back, leave us to breastfeed and change our baby in our disabled space, or a fifth space be made available that is accessible?

Crimsonpeaked · 15/02/2018 20:48

I took part in the last survey and would be happy to do another.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 15/02/2018 20:53

I thought the last survey was a good idea but open for too short a time. I was too slow to complete it.

I'd leave it open for at least a week.

I also think it would be good to think about the questions carefully. Maybe in collaboration with A woman's Place or Fair play.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 20:54

My golden rule of activism is anyone suggesting work that needs doing has to be willing to carry out the work themselves. If people write me a list of questions and options I can definitely put it out.

The most useful thing MN could come up with from the crowdfunder point of view is options to spend the money, if only part of it is spent on legal fees. In the cf text it says what the rest of the money must be spent on. This may (may!) only cost £5,000... which leaves an awful lot for other projects or groups...

OP posts:
RoderickRules · 15/02/2018 20:56

Re transing children, it would be sensible to push for any intervention (except talking therapies) to be had at age 16.

Give children a chance to develop.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 20:57

Collaboration is always good, if the other group is up for it, I know WPUK are very busy with the fantastic work they re doing... no harm in someone asking them tho.

OP posts:
GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 20:59

Further to keeping language simple, I think we should avoid the word 'gender' completely.

Perhaps only refer to it in the small print explaining that the word has a disputed meaning and is therefore legally irrelevant.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 15/02/2018 21:07

Perhaps only refer to it in the small print explaining that the word has a disputed meaning and is therefore legally irrelevant

It's also objectively unverifiable and it fluctuates (see gender fluidity) so is unsuitable as an attribute for legally classifying people. Unlike sex.

Destinysdaughter · 15/02/2018 21:09

JenniferJames thanks, I'm not sure what a survey monkey' is...but after a quick google, I see it's a way of doing a survey! I just think, if we do this, we need to be v clear about the wording of our questions and what our ultimate aim is. This is such an emotive subject, we need to stick to the facts as much as possible. I'm not a fan of the Daily Mail ( and don't believe they have women's interests at heart ), but to word it in a way that the average DM reader would understand.

I hope that doesn't come across as patronising! I'm just saying, we need to speak in very easy to understand terms, as this debate can v easily get bogged down in intellectual language and what we need is for ALL women to understand how serious this is and how it might affect them IYSWIM...

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 21:13

I totally agree about simple language and simple concepts.

If there is no way of explaining something simply and it is crucial to say it, then say it in a way that rolls of the tongue in a satisfying way and makes the speaker look and feel clever when they say it.

Ereshkigal · 15/02/2018 21:20

YY to a survey and using plain English and common usage descriptions.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 21:22

If you guys write it I'll send it out! Will keep checking this thread. xx

OP posts:
fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 21:29
  1. Do you believe women need female only spaces? a)Religous grounds b)safety c)other d)none of the above

This sort of thing?

fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 21:29

religious doh

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2018 21:29

No genderspeak!

Avoid it completely in everything. Its a political device!

I dislike even transwomen for this reason but also think TIMs suffers from the same type of political loading.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 21:31
  1. Do you believe women need sex segregated only spaces? a)Religous grounds b)safety, privacy & dignity c)disability d) other e)none of the above
Ereshkigal · 15/02/2018 21:31

MTF trans people?

fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 21:32
  1. Do you think women sports should remain open only to those born of the female sex a) Yes b) No c)none of the above
fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 21:33

Is the right of free speech important?
a) Yes
b)No
c)none of the above

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 21:33

Do you think the sex of women and girls should be asked to move out of their long standing sex segregated spaces for the welfare of the male sex?

fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 21:34

Should women retain the right to choose single sex education?

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 21:34

Do you agree to people to be free to have their own opinion and belief?

fishdogpancakes · 15/02/2018 21:35

Should there be certain height and weight restrictions in some female only sports?

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 21:37

Do you agree to the retention of the three spaces, sex segregated male, female and disabled?

Do you agree to the right of other groups to campaign for a gender neutral 4th space?

OlennasWimple · 15/02/2018 21:38

What's the point of the survey? To show that women want to keep sex segregation? To show that women aren't aware of the way that self-ID will impact them? Something else?

I agree with keep it simple. The average reading age of the Daily Mail content is about 11, which is about where we shoudl pitch this. No jargon, no loaded terms, no newsspeak.

Transwoman / transman are probably the most neutral terms to use? (An aside - we should include transmen in the survey, rather than fall into the trap that the TRAs set in making it all about transwomen)