Can we find a good historical analogy to the trans debate

[StillTryingHard]

The problem as I see it is that here we have two opposing factions that each see each other as the victim.

We (me) see biological women as the victim - that we have been the victim of male privilege & supremacy politically financially and physically for millennia and still are in many (most) countries

Trans identifiers see themselves as a sexual minority who are being devised access to spaces.

All the analogies I come up with side with the people who want to gain access to denied spaces. Rosa Parks, suffragettes etc

Is there a sufficient historical analogy that can show even though we want self identifying trans folk to keep out of women's geographical political economic ring fenced spaces - that this does not make us the oppressors.

I fall into the terf camp btw. But I have these arguments in my head

CraigyRicherererer what are you trying to achieve? If you made valid points ok, if you educated people about the discrimination of transwomen, that would make sense. But belittling the oppression of others, for what? To cherry pick examples that don't fit the general norm or suggest that some of those examples can over ride massive things like apartheid, slavery and centuries of the oppression of women is just fantasy and achieves absolutely zilch.

What makes you think I don't go out and do what I want? I'm not depressed, nor have I ever been. Just because women go out and do/get what they want doesn't mean it's easy. It's easier for my husband than it is for me, he knows this, sees it and admits it. That does not mean it's his or any other mans fault. It is what it is, burying your head in the sand won't change it.

Why does it bother you that women are oppressed? Why deny it? Why belittle it? Will denying it or belittling it help transwomen? Are you interested in the rights of transwomen at all? Or do you just want to argue with women on the Internet?

Nah. The world is not our oyster Craigy. You're not going to engage so I won't bother telling you why (give it a google if you're curious).

But I do think views like yours demonstrate the problem. Some men think that women have it made, and they should be made to give it up already.

Careful not to make the thread about this one person

Give it a google. This thread doesn't exist to justify feminism

Nice one Craigy, they’ll never spot you!

Soooo... back on topic?

It is terrifying when the media, fully aware of social contagion, abuses their platform to promote it. It is addressed in their style guide and yet almost every article about transitioning includes the suicide threat. It is infuriating.

Getting back on topic for cassandra - don't think we yet have an agreed analogy for when the people declaring themselves excluded from a space were not the oppressed minority. But I am most interested in the witch hunts and MPD and satanic abuse as instances of mass hysteria (akin to gender self id)

Found this excellent analysis that puts the trans/self-ID debate in a historical perspective (it is written by someone who is well-educated on political analysis): https://freerlives.wordpress.com/2018/04/26/women-biology-and-womens-spaces/amp/?twitterr_impression=true

Interesting article undercover

My two favourites already outlined above were:

1. transing GNC kids = labotomies (and don't forget its sparky companion, electroconvulsive therapy) - both promoted as 'cures' in their day by the medical profession, most of whom were making like bandits financially.

2. the witch trials (which we call 'the burning times') whereby 'uppity' or 'problem' women (usually) were denounced as witches and tortured/killed in a variety of ways. We are still in process with this one. First it starts with accusations of 'heretic' (yeah, lets modern this one up with 'bigot'), then threats of violence (see SFPL 'exhibition'), then actual violence. I would argue that the death component has started, with the TRA in the US killing the lesbian couple and their son. Don't forget, the 'authorities' were in full support of the burning times, as they are now. No spaces were safe, and not being able to trust neighbours/friends, who may turn you in for little or no reason.

That's a very good article, @undercoverswede, if rather long! I liked its analysis of the emerging women's movement.

in the "transwomen are women" thread, supermatch kept drawing our attention to legislation that describes the sex being that of the adopted gender.

That really did make me think of laws from Medieval or Tudor times.

Yeah, I thought it adds clarity and a bit of structure, which will be needed in civilised and productive critical debate that attracts support, rather than sets two tribes against each other. What’s on stake - the definition of ‘woman’ - is too important. We need to be well-equipped.

Great thread op place marking.

As people have mentioned above, the only parallel I can think of is the cultural appropriation one. If a privileged white person identifies as black then they are excoriated (Rachel Dolziel, white people wearing braids etc). But if a privileged male suddenly wears a dress and identifies as female (complete with penis), we are expected to accept that. It's a continuation of the male privilege.

Sorry, that's not historical though

The problem as I see it is that here we have two opposing factions that each see each other as the victim.

No, very, very wrong. The problem is that people are trying to make out that this is all about two opposing factions having a little bit of a squabble over some piece of land that we should all be sharing nicely, instead of feeling victimised.

Only if you would stop and think: the disputed territory is women's bodies and autonomy and biological truth and the right to speak. I said this in another thread, there is a very big difference between men feeling victimised and "hurt" because women will not bow down to their demands and women being victimised and hurt because men are demanding that we should have no boundaries and be a mindless public resource for them to use as they see fit. Big difference.

I didn’t want to be a dick but isn’t each side seeing itself as the victim not the other side....