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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can we find a good historical analogy to the trans debate

135 replies

StillTryingHard · 09/02/2018 09:56

The problem as I see it is that here we have two opposing factions that each see each other as the victim.

We (me) see biological women as the victim - that we have been the victim of male privilege & supremacy politically financially and physically for millennia and still are in many (most) countries

Trans identifiers see themselves as a sexual minority who are being devised access to spaces.

All the analogies I come up with side with the people who want to gain access to denied spaces. Rosa Parks, suffragettes etc

Is there a sufficient historical analogy that can show even though we want self identifying trans folk to keep out of women's geographical political economic ring fenced spaces - that this does not make us the oppressors.

I fall into the terf camp btw. But I have these arguments in my head

OP posts:
OvaHere · 09/02/2018 16:23

This is a list of groups I've seen TRAs appropriate in recent months in their quest to prove biological sex is not a thing.

Women
Children
Intersex
Gay
Lesbian
Bi
Disabled
WOC
Native Indian
Thai Ladyboys
Jewish
Various animals and amphibians

Can anyone add to it?

OvaHere · 09/02/2018 16:24

Musn't forget

Female gymnasts who were victims of sexual abuse Angry

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2018 17:32

Can anyone add to it?

How's this?

Veronica Martian‏ @ProudTransWoman
People, there are actually women out there who think that women don't have penises. This is against the Geneva Convention. What next? Trans prison camps?

War Time Prisoners both military and civilian. The Geneva Convention is specifically about all war and conflict zones. I guess that means we are at war and live in a conflict zone (Does this then imply that this individual thinks this is an armed struggle?)

HairyBallTheorem · 09/02/2018 17:40

Bloody norah, there is no end to the stupid, is there, Red (not to mention the hideously inappropriate nature of that particular tweet).

I don't think women don't have penises. I know women don't have penises.

Myunicornfliessideways · 09/02/2018 17:47

Also interesting to look at the social context of the salem witch trials.

Supposedly sensible people in authority drawn into believing unquestioningly that someone was a witch on the flimsiest of irrational claims. Boundaries of behaviour and social standards were pushed to extremes within the context of the panic: some appalling things done to people, particularly to women.

Led by teenagers within a specific social context, with unmet mental health needs/ anger against adults/ issues with relationships, who fed off each other with social contagion involved.

Appeared quickly, became overwhelming, huge price paid by ordinary people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Faded away almost as quickly as it appeared, now looked back on with disbelief as to how rational adults got so sucked in so quickly and appeared temporarily to believe the most stupid, irrational things because of het up teenagers and the social climate of the time.

OvaHere · 09/02/2018 17:49

Red Shock

Myunicornfliessideways · 09/02/2018 17:59

I can't be buggered to search the Geneva Convention, I know damn well it has no mention in it about women having penises. It's like the constant 'it's about human rights' - no it isn't. Human Rights are specific, drawn up, set things, and there is NOTHING in there about the right to force others to validate your refusal to accept biological fact.

There is no point trying to engage rationally with arguments and people so disconnected from reality and fact, this is extreme mental instability and delusional thinking running rampant. Paranoia is in here, narcissism is in here, it's pathological.

BeyondTerfyCassandra · 09/02/2018 18:04

Thanks for the new name, red Grin

BeyondTerfyCassandra · 09/02/2018 18:05

"I guess that means we are at war and live in a conflict zone"

See, delusions of persecution...

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2018 18:30

I bet Vietnam Vets would love that one.

Myunicornfliessideways · 09/02/2018 19:10

Cassandra thank you! Flowers

I was fairly sure in WW2 no captured prisoners were reminding their captors about their legal commitment to their lady dick.

Original poster
StillTryingHard · 10/02/2018 09:43

I think the witch trials connect above has massive merit - has all the components of what's happening now. Against women, some women pitting against other women thus splitting us, sexual undertones, & eventually died away

OP posts:
Original poster
StillTryingHard · 10/02/2018 09:43

Didn't really articulate above well - on train & slow phone

OP posts:
liloland · 10/02/2018 10:30

Henry VIII. In his mind he was second only to God. Women were chattel.

BreakingDad77 · 10/02/2018 15:44

Isreal v Palestinians both feel a minority to the other?

HawkeyeInConfusion · 10/02/2018 15:56

It is a poor analogy, and not historical, but the TRA argument came to mind in a 'discussion' with 4 year old DS.
DS: I want to wear these shoes
Me: Sorry, you can't. They are much too small
DS: But I want to
Me: You grew out of them a year ago, they won't fit on your feet
DS: I WANT TO WEAR THEM!
Me: It doesn't matter how angry you get with me. Or how much you shout. It doesn't change the fundamental reality that the shoes will not fit you. I'm sorry. I wish I could change that. But I can't. They will not fit.

Hopefully DS will grow out of his irrational demands that reality will change in line with his wishes. But maybe not everyone does.

Original poster
StillTryingHard · 10/02/2018 16:02

I really like that hawk

I wish there was some hashtag we could appropriate that sums up that sentiment. It's the opposite of #nodebate because we are acknowledging desire & argument but sadly refuting it as being nonsensical

OP posts:
BeyondTerfyCassandra · 10/02/2018 16:35

#nodebatingnonsense ? Grin

HawkeyeInConfusion · 10/02/2018 16:39

#sorrybutcannotchangebiologicalfact ?

lovetheway · 10/02/2018 17:01

Very like the Satanic Abuse scandals of the 80s- when nobody dare say 'Did that really happen?' without attracting all sorts of opprobrium.

But the best argument is - what country has the largest number of state funded gender reassignment surgeries? Iran.
Is that because a) they are much more woke or b) they really hate gays?

Materialist · 10/02/2018 23:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Everyonematters · 10/02/2018 23:09

#weneedtotalkaboutsex

borntobequiet · 10/02/2018 23:17

Any cult will do.
Anabaptists in Munster, sixteenth century?

thebewilderness · 10/02/2018 23:17

Eugenics is a similar case where doctors experimented on children until the Nazis took it too far and made it look bad.
Hint: It was already horrible.

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