Once again, misogyny from transwomen...

[TheCatsPaws]

I’ve just witnessed a horrific exchange online. A young woman, about 19 I’d guess, made a comment about “trans identified males” and said that dressing as a woman doesn’t mean you understand being female. She was completely respectful, polite and insulted no one. Instantly she was attacked for her “terf language” and then, suddenly, her looks. The transwomen called her ugly, said she needed facial feminisation surgery, that her lips looked disgusting, that her vagina didn’t make her look less of a man, etc. And it was a dogpile that went on for hours.

HOW is this any different from men who turn abusive when a woman refuses to sleep with them or validate them, their go to is to call women ugly. It’s literally the same response. Plus, it shows their view of womanhood is based on looks, which is highly misogynistic...

This is really starting to fuck me off now.

I get told there's no issues anymore and get accused of being a crazy feminist"

Well be proud of the feminist 'label' and challenge the crazy! who says you are crazy? If it is other women then gently show them how loaded this world is against women, it's not hard to do.

This is an interesting one.

I've seen women on here say they don't tell people in real life that they post on mumsnet. Women who love mumsnet.

And I kind of get that.

Someone asked me what I'd been doing, when I had been spending ages posting on here, and I had a momentary reluctance to say so.

I wondered, rightly or wrongly that the reaction might be, really? Mumsnet? Because, from people who don't use the site, there is a certain perception.

And I was reluctant to spend time to break through that perception in order to justify my use. But I did it. Because I am entirely confident that my opinion of mumsnet is correct!

So now, everyone knows, that I really rate mumsnet, but more importantly, the reasons why.

We quite frequently have men coming on here making the mistake of thinking that mumsnet is all about baking, or nappies, or bored housewives.

And I'm not denigrating those things. I'm just saying that it's far more than that.

When I tell them that there are 12 million unique users per month on here, it's a bit eye-opening. That's an awful lot of women.

And it's the same with feminism.

I acquired 'late onset feminism'. (Which seems to be fairly contagious, at the moment, judging by how many women are saying the same).

And because it's so important to me, now, I do want to talk about it.

But announcing myself as a feminist, to people in real life, was another 'you use mumsnet? Really?' moment.

'Eh? A feminist?' Always followed by a 'Why?'

Because even though I was probably an embryonic feminist all my life. I hadn't connected the dots. So I didn't call myself one.

A couple of friends continue to eye roll. But, because they know me well, and I have sufficient creds in the 'friend bank', they listen.

I'm very careful not to rant. And am more likely to go into drip feed mode. But actually coming out and saying you're a feminist, or you understand feminism now, or you're interested in feminism, is quite liberating.

Especially if done with a light touch. There's a joke in our house that whatever goes wrong it's the fault of the 'fucking patriarchy'.

Taylor22

If words like female oppression and patriarchy are a bridge too far, because, sometimes, they do sound (to the uninitiated) a bit ranty, change them.

Instead of oppression, say disadvantage to women. Instead of patriarchy, say male chauvinism or sexism.

'Women are oppressed by the patriarchy' might well induce an eye roll.

But 'women are disadvantaged by sexism', or 'male chauvinism' is far more likely to be acknowledged, and understood.

Few people will deny the existence of male chauvinism. (Whilst, in the same breath claiming the patriarchy doesn't exist).

I'm following Miranda Yardley on Twitter. She shared some tweets that she's received this morning from TRAs and they're absolutely vile.

Some excellent posts (as usual esp Datun and Italian! )

I find it hard to 'admit' I'm on mn.

I promised myself I'd stay away today as have Shit To Do but thought this a good response regarding best words to use:

I think Lily is here? Or was? Awesome stuff Lily!

Datun I like the way you repositioned oppression and patriarchy. I’ll use that, thank you. I’ve friends who believe we don’t need feminism any more. I’ve only recently realised I am (thanks to peak-transing) and still trying to get my thoughts straight on it.

Like, OK, some delusional AGP on the internet thinks I'm unfuckable due to being too uppity. I'm supposed to care about that why, exactly?

And you know, it's not like you have a lifetime of dealing with non-AGP but equally sexist men behaving in exactly the same way when you refuse to validate them to draw upon, is it?

All of this self ID and TRA stUfford that's going on now, has pushed me into corners of the Internet that I would've avoided like the plague at one time.

Do I regret it? The answer to that is a big fat NO. Do I tell people that I'm a feminist? Up until a few months ago I would've said no, but now I say YES, without shame or hesitation.

And it's bloody liberating and wonderful.

*stuff

Stupid phone. I think it may have been infiltrated by a TRA 😳

Men who want to be taken for women - but actually seem to hate them. All very odd.

Pygmalion is sculpting his own body into the feminine ideal.

Or like the Aztec (and other) rites in which priests wear the flayed skin of sacrifice victims and emerge from it at the height of the ritual to symbolise their usurpation of the control of birth from women?

I've read feminist analysis that asserts the move from moon/feminine fertility religions based on the lunar/menstrual cycle to sun/masculine religions were the beginning of patriarchy.

I think we WILL ultimately win because ordinary women like me who haven’t necessarily considered themselves feminists or visited the Feminist board on here until recently are absolutely outraged by this and are talking about it.
The more badly they behave the more of us will fight back

Such amazing posts on this thread

I am totally with the gradual progress on the trans argument and the only logical long term resolution will be truth...it's just a matter of what we have to go through to get there!

In this journey I think there is a short term problem of politeness and compassion. I was watching Jordan Peterson yesterday (most forthright truth telling person you could wish to be) and when he was confronted with a TIM even he could not say directly and honestly that this person was not a woman.

You see it everywhere in RL, not sooo much on twitter but definitely still there too, that normal compassionate people find it hard to hurt the feelings of others. When presented with someone who clearly has a mental illness and is deluded, do you want to be the one who tells the truth and shatters their world?
I know I can do it on a keyboard but to someone's face? I just don't think I could.

Like we've said a million times on here, we ALL know that they aren't women so figuring out a kind and compassionate way to say that is crucial in moving this forward. Faced with having to do that I can completely see why doctors have gone for the medical intervention route, it's much easier than the hard conversation with you being the twat.

Is there anyone here who has spoken the truth in rl? I'd be interested to hear how you did it

Typical misogynistic tactics.

My sympathies to the young woman who was abused.

I’m inspired and comforted in equal measures by what I am reading here. I have been uncomfortable with trans women for a while now although I didn’t know why - just a gut feeling.
But then IW who could have done much for the trans cause on B.B. opened my eyes BIG time and I almost felt like Alice falling through the rabbit hole.
I could suddenly see the dangers presented to women by this tiny minority who seemed to have so much anger towards women and an horrific sense of entitlement that their rights should supersede the rights of those whose ranks they allegedly wanted to join. Such manly behaviour!

I’m a SAHM with a husband whose views sometimes come out of the 1880s regarding women and even he agrees with the wave of anger which sweeps over me regarding women and their rights which are being attacked by TW.

If anybody could explain some of the acronyms / phrases ( like peak trans) I would be much obliged.

Posts from Ekphrasis and Datun I’m finding very uplifting and make me fear for my daughters future a little less. Keep,posting ladies . It’s women like you who make me so proud to be a women.

I can’t express myself as elegantly as most of the posters on here so I will just have to share with you the two sayings which constantly circle my brain when I read or see some of the dreadful anti women rhetoric which I read from so many quarters,

An empty vessel makes the most noise.

You can put lipstick 💄 on a 🐷 pig but it’s still a pig.

And with that I’m off to teach my dd some important things about being female!

Is there anyone here who has spoken the truth in rl? I'd be interested to hear how you did it

On the couple of occasions I've mentioned it real life, I've been laughed at because there is absolutely no way the government would allow self ID to happen and I must have been reading some ridiculous radfem man hating propaganda and am a bit of a fool for believing it and lacking the critical thinking skills required to realise it is a nonsense.

Honestly.

InaConfusedState

Language is extremely important. I've come to realise that more and more. Not just the linguistic gymnastics that transactivists jump through, but the way ordinary people perceive things.

Thankfully, the word sexism, still has a gut response to it. It hasn't yet been subverted to mean something it doesn't.

Lily Maynard is correct. Saying something is sexist, rather than misogynistic or oppressive to women, still engenders the correct response.

Let's leverage it!

Yorkshire

If anybody could explain some of the acronyms / phrases ( like peak trans) I would be much obliged.

I wrote this on another thread about 'peak trans', when someone was asking questions and wanting the different terms explained. So I'll cut-and-paste.

The rest of the thread might also help.

"Yes, peak trans is meant to invoke the image of a hill.

So people might start in the foothills wondering what on earth women are talking about, why is it so important?

Then they begin to question. Still not sure, because up until now, they didn't see any problem. Why not be nice? What's the big deal?

Then they start to understand the concepts. Sometimes they still waver, because this all feels like it's happening somewhere else. Online, or not really affecting them. And anyway, feminists have a downer on men, so it's unsurprising they're cross. And, honestly, I know a transwoman and she's absolutely delightful.

Then they read about a rapist being transferred to a female prison. So what, one news story. Are you saying all transwomen are rapists?!

Then they read about the woman who asked for a female HCP and got a man. Oh well, a little uncomfortable, but still, what's the big deal? Then they read that the woman was called a transphobic bigot for objecting.

Hmmm, well that's a bit off. I may not mind a man doing my smear test, but I can understand women who do. It's not really bigoted.

At this point you have advanced a few hundred yards up the hill.

Then a sports story is mentioned on here. A mediocre male weightlifter suddenly winning awards by competing as a woman.

Oh, whatever, I don't like sport anyway.

Then another one. Then someone in cycling, fell running, roller derby, football, cricket, golf.

Then suddenly it appears to be less about sport, and more about women being disadvantaged.

The crampons come out and you advance another few hundred yards up the hill.

Then you notice that a 19-year-old boy has been elected as labour's women's officer. Oh well, he probably feels like a woman inside. That's gender dysphoria, right?

Except he starts to compile a secret list of all women who disagree with him to get them ousted from the party. Despite his remit being to include as many women as possible in the party. Claims he can get pregnant and that biology is irrelevant.

Then you start to notice intimidating tactics against women. Meetings to discuss the upcoming law change are targetted, a 60-year-old woman is hit at speakers corner. Venues pull out, peoples jobs are threatened, they are doxxed online, they are reported to the police for disagreeing.

You scramble up towards the peak of the hill.

Then someone tells you about autogynephilia, and all the men's rights activists flocking to the trans movement. You realise that it is actually true that the government is legislating to legitimise a fetish.

You peak. You look back down the hill and can't believe you ever stood at the bottom.

Then you read of 2 transwomen, one of whom has been asked to speak at the Women's March. Who claims that being treated like a piece of meat by men is sexy and objectification is hot. And because they are woman, they speak on behalf of women. And the other one who claims that women are allowed to go to the Women's March, as long as they don't talk about their reproductive systems. You know, the very basis of women's oppression. Because it excludes men. The ones who are doing the oppressing.

And you peak all over again.

This keeps going.

You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again."

Thread here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

We were talking about this in the office this week. Most hadn’t heard of the whole Lily thing or the whole ‘I’m a woman if I say so and can actually really honestly birth a baby one day’.

It was all men in the office that day - straight and gay - and they were all gobsmacked. The conversation started because one of the gay men was saying that he really wanted to have kids (and another asked if he was planning a surrogate or adoption), and that he had been told that these days you couldn’t use the word ‘gay’ for some reason (his eyes were rolling so much I thought they’d fall out).

Datun
That was a brilliant explanation on peak trans.
How unaware am I?? I didn't realise how far things could still go, to further the interests of patriarchy. Thanks for the insight.

I think it was in the 1980's where Pretty Polly tights used images to advertise their tights using a male model with long slim legs.
Caused an furore at the time.
Another instance I recall, was a man who won the 'Mum of the Year ' contest. It was explained by the judges that his parenting skills deemed him to be special for the award. He appeared on breakfast TV.
Many mums were not pleased. Obv!,

Brilliant post Datun.

When I speak to people tentatively they don't believe me about self id i.e. Any man can say he is a woman and tramp into their daughters changing room. The average person isn't aware tbh. Not that they agree with it they've just not realised. I only have because of this website.

yes when I attempted a comment about the invasion of women's spaces on fb, I got called a 'disgusting cockroach' by some fucked up boysie.
then he blocked me so I couldn't respond.
I think I got off lightly...

Wasn’t it Paul O’Gradys legs?

@Datun at Sat 10-Feb-18 09:50:31

You are a bloody genius. So clear and so succinct. XX

Cor, @datun that peak description is perfect 👌 I'm sure I've already read it but it's just great