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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we talk about liberal feminism?

572 replies

BertrandRussell · 07/02/2018 10:27

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

  1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
  2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
  3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......

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DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 08:26

Lang, do you have a source for that 97-99%. It was mentioned earlier, but I can't find the study. Thanks.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 08:34

Bert, it is great that you have so many rad fem friends living close by. Could they help you with your feelings of pressure and pathetic to shave before going to the pool? Often things are much less daunting if we do them in a group.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 09:00

Slavery by its very definition cannot be voluntary.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2018 09:41

Dione-it would be absolutely wonderful if you would either say clearly on a thread what the issue you have with me is or just stop with the snark. Your choice-I an happy with either. But it does get pretty tedious, I must say!

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BigChocFrenzy · 09/02/2018 09:45

Reading MN Feminist Corner over the last 4 years has made me realise that I am a radfem
And also made me think a lot more deeply about feminism, so many thanks to all here for that Smile

The 3 main issues where I have disagreed with some - not all - libfems:

1) "I'm all right, Jill" - so if you aren't, it's because of your poor choices

imo, nothing wrong with earning lots of money, having a great career; Good luck to you if you faced no barriers

It is wrong however to say that other women are not held back by barriers.

Same situation wrt race and class:

Some people of colour have said their colour has never been a barrier, never experienced prejudice or racial abuse.
Ok, I believe their particular case. It certainly wasn't mine.

Some people have risen high and claimed being born very poor was no hindrance in getting a great education and then a high-flying career.
I experienced great poverty and am now comfortably off in a good career, but this required considerable sacrifice & struggle, barriers that those born wealthy did not have to overcome

  1. Biological differences to men Much of the reason women have been disadvantaged and oppressed come from biology. So merely giving us the same rights as men, does not result in the same opportunities and quality of life

e.g.
a) Physical strength & size
Women are at far greater risk - probably 50x higher - of sexual or physical violence from men, than vice versa.

Women can't compete on equal terms to men, wrt physical strength, speed; even the damage suffered from blows is different.

Ignoring all this puts women in even greater danger and under more disadvantage.

Hence e.g. why equal treatment and allowing men / transwomen into womens' safe spaces, or into sport, damages the rights of women.
As does letting those who grew up with male privilege win awards or grants for women.

b) Child-birth & pregnancy
Most people (but not me !) want kids, but only women bear the physical consequences, which may be life-changing and severe.

Even the most equal partnership can not share that part of the physical load

c) periods that may cause debilitating pain or flodding - so damaging when some women say others should just get suffer at work without any allowance, "if they really want equality" Confused

I was fortunate not to have much problem, but I would never say this means other women shouldn't be able take an extra sick day - without it counting in the Bradford formula etc

3) Throwing women under the bus

As a mixed race woman aged 61 who grew up very poor,
I am well aware of the discrimination wrt race/religion, class/income/ inheritance, age.

Making life better for most women often means also campaigning for better rights for the less well off, for more action against racism and ageism.

I oppose all forms of discrimination against the disadvantaged.
BUT
I would never remove rights from women, to help other disadvantaged groups

  • because that is not fair treatment.

So e.g. I would campaign for extra bathrooms or sports contests for transpeople,
but would never accept that transwomen just be lumped in with women.

I support respect and making reasonable allowances for other religious beliefs,
but never accept that they can refuse (non-religious) jobs or services specifically to women, or to people of other races / religions / sexuality.

I reject any political party which takes it upon themselves to remove hard-won rights for women, to appease misogynists or the trans lobby.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/02/2018 09:46

Bloody hell, sorry - that was a looong rant !
I'll make myself a Brew

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 10:35

Bert, there was no "snark" in my post.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 09/02/2018 10:48

Oh Dione don't be ridiculous. It was dripping with snark. Like always. Pretty much all your posts are incredulous and oddly specific queries to Bertrand, it's tiresome. Like she said: say what your beef is or bloody drop it already.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 10:55

No it wasn't. And nor was my previous post about how sad I felt it was that she was trapped in a Catch 22 regarding pressure to conform and then feeling pathetic.

I didn't know that she had RL support from rad fems and on finding out that she had it seemed a great solution as I have seen similar solutions work for women with self harm scars.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 09/02/2018 10:57

Stop already. You're making yourself look really stupid and quite unpleasant.

AngryAttackKittens · 09/02/2018 10:58

I liked your rant, BigChocFrenzy! There's too much to rant about to be contained with short comments.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 11:06

And again with the Ad hominem attacks.Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 09/02/2018 11:08

Unfortunately so, AngryAttackKittens
and the fight must go on

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 09/02/2018 11:09

You're the only feminam (!) doing it though! I'm not going to say everyone on the thread keeps cacking on and on and on and on and on about Bertrand's legs, because they're not: just you are! God alone knows why.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 11:16

I have made no attack on anyone's character.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2018 11:17

"I didn't know that she had RL support from rad fems and on finding out that she had it seemed a great solution as I have seen similar solutions work for women with self harm scars"
Dione-that post is pretty offensiive on many levels. However, please feel free to occupy yourself with thoughts of my hairy/not hairy legs/how my daughter perceives herself as a woman and my friendship group! If you ever feel like telling me why you're so interested I would be fascinated!
Thank you, Seek, by the way.

And now, revenir a ses moutons....

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DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 11:18

Why is it offensive?

AngryAttackKittens · 09/02/2018 11:21

Oh wow, I missed the self harm scars part. Yes, Bertrand, you really are harming yourself by not shaving your legs, see how dangerous exposure to radfem ideas is?

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2018 11:24

Dione-just sit and have a BIg Think about how equating not enjoying appearing in public with hairy legs to people with self harm scars might possibly be offensive to people with self harm scars. Maybe talk to your supervisor about it if you don't get it. Enough.

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hollowtree · 09/02/2018 11:24

Hi everyone I know I'm a bit late to the party (called into the thread early on to say hi to rat but come back and it's 17 pages!) but could someone please highlight the main differences between feminism/radical feminism/liberal feminism for me?

I'm not being a GF I actually just know very little about it all and would like to know exactly where my views are represented best.

If someone could define a concise and clear set of differences that would be really helpful, as I've got to be honest a lot of this thread goes over my head. But chocfrenzy your post and particularly point 2 really spoke to me and made a lot of sense.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2018 11:26

It's all right, Kittens. I have support from my "RL radfem friends".I think I'll cope...

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SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 09/02/2018 11:26

It is offensive because:

It comes in the context of you going on and on and on about legs anyway.

You are taking Bert's comment that she knows shaving legs isn't a feminist act but she does it anyway, which you have similarly cacked on about with an irritating head-tilt style about how sad it is that she feels pathetic

You have totally taken the thing about local feminists addressing period poverty out of context and reframed as an astonishing group of radfems who can give Bert the support you're pretending you think she so desperately needs

You're equating her feelings about hairy legs to the way people might feel about self-harm scars.

You're being either astonishingly disingenuous, or plain unpleasant by doing all this.

You do it all the time. It's tiresome.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/02/2018 11:28

Angry, the point was not that Bert was harming herself by not shaving her legs. Shock It was that when align yourself with women similar to yourself you can do things in a group that you would feel uneasy doing yourself.

Going swimming with a group of non shaving women can strengthen you to go swimming alone without having to shave first and alleviate the feeling of being pathetic every time you go in a pool.

BertrandRussell · 09/02/2018 11:33

hollowtree- if I had to sum it up I'd say that for radical feminists the personal is political and for liberal feminists it isn't. For liberal feminists the individual and the choices they make are central. For radical feminists the choices they make impact on women as a whole. I think. But I know others will disagree/say it better.

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AngryAttackKittens · 09/02/2018 11:33

Sorry, I don't think I'm up to explaining sarcasm as a concept at the moment.

Good illustration of the class analysis versus individualism divide though, Bertrand's societally based discomfort somehow becoming a personal failing/individual weakness when viewed through a liberal feminist lens.