Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[BertrandRussell]

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......

I donate sanpro to my local foodbank on a regular basis. Its one of the things I imagine most people do forget. I also donate things like deodrants and such. For both men and women. I donate a bit of food, but my focus is on trying to think of thingd that people would not generally think of. Which is quite a headfuck

Sex positivism in its current form isn't any variety of feminism, it is the backlash.

I agree with this. And back to the bastardization of the words 'liberal feminism'...this is sold as the only way to be a libfem these days. And anyone who disagrees even slightly with any aspect of 'sex positivity' is an embittered old hag, a SWERF or someone 'pretending to be feminist but clearly not as they do not value feminist choices, and every choice made by a woman is a feminist choice, so stop dragging others down. Also, NAMALAT and women do it too!!!!'

"No cui bono"

This is precisely it. It's a reason why I get so frustrated with (some) libfem arguments about prostitution. All the focus is always on the women - both the women in prostitution and the nasty SWERFs opposing them. It is never placed on the men buying the sex, or taking a very large cut of the profits from this sale. The violence of pimps and punters is rendered invisible under a sea of sex-positivity and rhetoric about individual choice. The stark economics of the situation is buried beneath this rhetoric of choice. No-one ever seems prepared to make the point that supposed organisations of "sex-workers" are heavily populated by pimps who don't actually sell their own bodies, merely those of other people. And it is presented as an inevitable state of nature where the only thing we can do is play lip-service to harm minimisation. ("Murder has been with us since Cain first killed Abel, being a contract hit-man is the oldest profession in the world, there's no point trying to get rid of it..." And lest you think the comparison between murder and prostitution is hyperbole, reflect on this: "The study showed that the general population had a mortality rate of 1.9 per every 100,000 people, but the mortality for prostitutes was 391 per 100,000 people and active prostitutes have a mortality rate of 459 per 100,000 people." nobullying.com/prostitution-statistics/ - the study in question was from 2004.)

Fab post, Hairy!

You are Julie Bindel and I clam my five pounds

I don’t think some(?) libfems understand class analysis.

That, though, is the natural consequence of liberal individualism taken to its fullest extent. To the committed liberal indvidualist, personal autonomy is all, and anyone who tries to restrict or interfere with that autonomy - whatever their motivation may be - is the enemy. As far as they're concerned, "class analysis" is just a framing device for you to impinge on their autonomy.

Indeed, radical feminists are more than just the enemy, because they dare to question the very existence of individual autonomy.

At a risk of deralining, cui bono is something I always want to ask when talking about trans issues.....

I volunteer in a food bank. They all differ in what they accept, usually depending on space, so it's worth ringing to ask, or to ask what they're particularly short of. All-in-one shower gel/shampoo is a good one to get because it's two products in one. Our regular donors often buy us a big pack of washing tablets - the type where you get two tablets in one cellophane packet inside the big box. We split them down and give 3 x 2 packs to everyone who comes in who has a working washing machine.

Hairy

EXACTLY. Cui bono?

Our food bank has asked for no more pads or tampons for a while- all down tonne and my radical feminist friends being "do-ers"............

Yup. Thanks for that reminder Lang - poverty of access to simply being able to keep clean, and wear clean clothes is one of thousands of little ways women are forced to struggle. Does your area have an energy bank (where people can get their gas/electric cards and keys topped up so they can cook food/heat the home/wash clothes?) We're looking at trying to set one up in our area.

Not yet, Luner, but we're looking into it. Hopefully soon. It might even change the food we give out to be more healthy too - because so many people only have dribs and drabs of power so everything has to be microwaved or Pot Noodles or somesuch that you only have to boil the kettle for.

Sex positivism in its current form isn't any variety of feminism, it is the backlash.*

Totally agree I can't stand the 'sex positivity' movement and I don't understand how more women don't see how it plays right into the hands of men. I have been called a prude, ugly, jealous etc for expressing these views. It really really has nothing to do with any of those things, they never listen to your reasoning though. Possibly because they might reveal an uncomfortable truth.

While there are threads like this we obviously have a long way to go. (Lighthearted- I think)

Well on that I think we can all agree!

It's interesting that none of our commenters who lean more liberal feminist seem to have anything to say about sex positivism.

This is precisely it. It's a reason why I get so frustrated with (some) libfem arguments about prostitution. All the focus is always on the women - both the women in prostitution and the nasty SWERFs opposing them. It is never placed on the men buying the sex, or taking a very large cut of the profits from this sale. The violence of pimps and punters is rendered invisible under a sea of sex-positivity and rhetoric about individual choice. The stark economics of the situation is buried beneath this rhetoric of choice.

Selling a kidney is also technically a choice (if it's not your husband who decided to sell it for you, which is a thing that happens). And yet in that case you'd probably have a hard time finding anyone who calls themselves a feminist who can't lay out the economic issues surrounding that "choice" and how those issues compromise the ability to make a free choice and muddy the waters ethically. Most of them would probably also be able to make a case for, say, garment workers in Cambodia being exploited even though technically they've agreed to take the jobs they have. Why is what we'd recognize as economic exploitation if it was anything else being bought is suddenly beyond critique if the thing being bought is a blowjob? You don't see people saying, oh, the mostly female workers who do fine piecework on Chanel suits are paid well and generally happy in their jobs so there's no need to talk about exploitation in the garment trade in general.

Or labeling anyone who does want to talk about exploited garment workers Chanel Employed Artisan Excluding Feminists either, for that matter.

Yes, it’s interesting that there is a belief that radical feminists look down on and despise prostitutes and women in porn. I have no idea where that comes from.

I can't imagine despising anyone enough not to be worried about them if they were working in the sex industry, given all that I've heard from women who have worked in that industry.

Yes, it’s interesting that there is a belief that radical feminists look down on and despise prostitutes and women in porn. I have no idea where that comes from.

It's because people don't listen to what's actually being said, or maybe they don't want to. It's the same with the recent grid girls f1 thing. Feminists are getting the blame for 'putting women out of work' when it actually wasn't anything to do with feminism.

And this is why I think it's worth digging into how liberal feminists interpret radfem positions on sex and issues to do with sex, even when they'd rather we not do that, because there's a fairly clear line between the idea that radfems just hate sex/penises/whatever and the belief that the reason we have issues with the sex industry is because we hate sex and women who sell sex.

Yes, it's the constant insistence on hearing the words "I don't want women to be economically coerced into sex they don't want with exploitative and often violent men who want to treat them as wanksocks" as "I don't like sex."

For the record, I like sex very, very much. And I want all women to only have sex they like very, very much, not be forced into sex they don't want or enjoy because some bloke with more money than them wants to get his rocks off.

I have no idea where that comes from

Using phrases like 'happy hooker' and no one pointing out it is at the very least problematical. That is one of the places that someone might think others look down on women who choose to work as prostitutes.

For the record, I like sex very, very much. And I want all women to only have sex they like very, very much, not be forced into sex they don't want or enjoy because some bloke with more money than them wants to get his rocks off

Yes and yes again. However, a minority of prostitute women do choose to do this work. I find that choice errrrr 'difficult' but I would not deny them that choice.

I think it's worth digging into how liberal feminists interpret radfem positions on sex and issues to do with sex

It's always the same reason. The libfems that do this (and I know it's not all of them) just cannot even begin to conceptualise a radfem position that does not begin and end with the self. That's why the radfem position gets reframed as a personal disgust on the part of the radfem.

Moussemoose perfectly exemplifies what I've just said.

That last post should be full of caveats. Well educated women, in societies where women have legal equality (technically), social safety net etc etc