Can we talk about liberal feminism?

[BertrandRussell]

Can I say what liberal feminism means to me, then can others tell me whether I am understanding it properly?
My understanding is that liberal feminists believe

1. There are no-or very few structural or societal barriers in the way of women's progress. There were, but since the passing of equality legistation they have been almost-if not completely removed
2. That any choice a woman makes is by definition a feminist choice.
3. That women hold the keys of their own empowerment in their own hands- they have nothing to fear but fear itself, to coin a phrase- and realising this is the touchstone to progress.

Is that broadly it? Or am I madly wide of the mark......

TBH I never would have said I was a radical feminist as I didn't really realise there was any such thing. I was always just a feminist, but modern liberal feminism seems to have nothing for me at all, I've become very disillusioned by it.

Beachcomber

I love that post.

We probably need a Venn diagram so that we aren't constantly being at cross purposes on terms: radfem/libfem/2nd wave/3rd wave/lean-in/choice - all the rest of it.

@Hairy

Yeah, that kind of liberal thought I have no issue with. May not always agree on every point (because as you said it overlooks some fairly significant factors), but it's a decent, ethical position that's worthy of respect and serious engagement.

Or, you know, what Beachcomber said.

I think that's true Beach - classical liberalism as a whole has been co-opted by extreme libertarianism (in fact, even among some political liberals who see libertarianism as associated with the right, you still see a cult of individual feelings and self-expression replacing political analysis - capitalism is doing a number on all of us, making us lose sight of collective justice and action in the pursuit of individual self-expression).

Angry fear not, I am enjoying the level of snark. I particularly like the idea of the two straw-rad-fems becoming each other's imaginary friends.

I think there are a few comments indicating as much in the early part of this thread aren't there Angry? I can't be arsed to go back.

And there's no harm in a bit of snark in the mornings.

I think it's all part of the backlash, honestly. The trans wars were the point at which many people here may have first noticed that something had gone very wrong with mainstream feminism, but the frog was already being boiled long before that.

Or, in musical form...

I think you know very well that suggesting that any feminist doesn't think men are fully responsible for any acts of rape that they commit is going to come across as deeply offensive, Lunar.

But I did not say that. Tell me, after the sentence you originally quoted back to me, did you read the one after that?

And I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that any transformative justice for victims of rape/dv etc has to be rooted in men collectively taking responsibility, given that there is this whole culture of myths that are all about blaming the victim...

So frankly I really don't know how you can get "suggesting that any feminist doesn't think men are fully responsible for any acts of rape" from what I said. Because there is nothing I can do for something wilfully misunderstanding me.

Angry not just feminism, but broader politics again. I think I said on another thread that the trans issue was the canary in the coal mine with regard to the rise of the authoritarian left.

But yes, I think with much mainstream feminism (of the Everyday Femi Meninism variety) you're right - the canary had carked long before the rise of trans issues. As one male commentator put it, "we won the sex wars the day a woman defended the idea that pole dancing was empowering."

*someone.

I think I said on another thread that the trans issue was the canary in the coal mine with regard to the rise of the authoritarian left.

Very true. With lesbians (and the cotton ceiling) as the litmus test.

beachcomber
100% agree with you on all of that.

Yeah, in a way it would be easier if it was just feminism that was having these issues in terms of infiltration and authoritarian asshats, because then at least there would be only one front to fight on, but in fact it's everywhere. The fact that the Labour party is reacting the way it is should alarm everyone regardless of where they stand on trans issues, because secret lists and purges are not signs of a healthy movement.

Lovely attempt at making this into a "that one meanie is being mean to me" issue, Lunar, but note that I was not the only person who pulled you up on that particular statement.

I agree with a lot of radfem theory, although I probably sound libfem when I say it's all about choice. I suppose what I mean is that I would advocate a free choice where eg domestic labour / childcare was valuable and valued and therefore dismantling the (capitalist, patriarchal) notion that only paid labour outside the home is worthwhile. I would also support sex workers as individuals, but feel a transitionary period of financial support and retraining for sex workers before abolishing sex work completely would be vastly preferable to the Nordic model.

I think it can be incredibly hard to "live as a radfem", if you will, in a capitalist and patriarchal society: I am aware that my choosing to be a SAHM while my DC are preschool aged is not helping further the cause for women as a class, but it is the best situation working within current circumstances for our family. I am aware that taking my husband's name was hardly two fingers up to the patriarchy but I was very young and to change it back now would be a drama and faff and explaining myself that I frankly don't have time for. Writing letters to MPs is all well and good, but I wouldn't really challenge a transwoman in the loos as I'd have 3 small girls with me; I'd of course take the politeness I'm socialised with and my 5 foot nothing, squashy-since-childbirth frame, quietly leave and go back later. All of that doesn't sound very radical, even to me

Also I've seen what transformative justice as a concept looks like when applied to rape in terms of how it played out in the Occupy movement, and no thanks.

Yeah, in a way it would be easier if it was just feminism that was having these issues in terms of infiltration and authoritarian asshats, because then at least there would be only one front to fight on, but in fact it's everywhere.

My favourites are the faux anarchists. YOU MUST DO WHAT I SAY! YOU MUST THINK WHAT I THINK!

liberal feminism only works when it coexists with radical feminism

I'd go further than that actually, I'd go so far as to say that they are both ineffectual without the other. Radical feminism needs something bridging the gap between its ideas and their uptake with real women. I think Effic's unpopular posts do highlight this; how can we get women to support and enact the things needed to make things better for all women when women are just waking up to the fact that they don't need to be told what to do?

To my mind both sides need the other.

@SweetheartNeckline

Any form of radical politics is hard to square with the realities of the society that you have to live in, so don't be too hard on yourself. I have a good friend who's an anarchist (the old school kind, not the wear all black and go beat people up at rallies kind) and much as she'd prefer to live in a totally different political system she's stuck in the one she has with kids to feed and the need to keep a roof over her head, so compromises have to be made. People do what they need to do to survive.

Angry - yes. The good parts of the thinking behind transformative justice, namely getting people to think about rape and sexual interaction and consent and enthusiastic participation and consideration of others, need to take place before the crime has taken place. Once it has taken place, I'm all in favour of punishment both for the sake of the victim (retribution is not necessarily a bad thing) and to keep the bastards out of circulation for as long as possible (rapists tend to be repeat offenders, with - source, Lisak on offending patterns in the US - on average 6 rapes to their names - the longer the sentence, the less time they're out on the streets to reoffend).

And I will again note that you are choosing to deliberately misinterpret what I said, because there was nothing to pull me up on.

Exactly. The pressure put on women not to report rapes to the police and to forgive their rapists within various Occupy camps made my blood boil.

Keep on being you, Lunar! I'm sure if you pretend that nobody but me noticed what you said and pointed it out it will eventually become true.

Thankyou Kittens. I suppose we can just make small changes a bit at a time: never commenting about other women's appearance, helping working mums out with childcare in the school holidays, demanding equality (although we, and our roles and responsibilities are not the same) with DH within our home sphere, discouraging gender stereotypes, trying not to default to "he" for animals at the zoo, reading fantastic books myself and with the girls...

I am doing well with those little bits of chipping away at least, and that is good enough for now.

DD (who is six) shouted at the TV: the presenter said "Of course this is a girl as she's wearing a beautiful dress..."

"WHERE'S HER VAGINA?!" she bellowed. "I CAN'T SEE HER REVULVA! It could be a boy in a dress you berk!"

And I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that any transformative justice for victims of rape/dv etc has to be rooted in men collectively taking responsibility, given that there is this whole culture of myths that are all about blaming the victim...

or what then ? I don't see a big rush towards the naughty step.

Okay, I'll start with a direct quote: "And I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that any transformative justice for victims of rape/dv etc has to be rooted in men collectively taking responsibility, given that there is this whole culture of myths that are all about blaming the victim."

What I'm trying to point out is that this claim is predicated on the idea that transformative justice can work, in a magical world where men (including rapists) collectively took responsibility. But we know that rapists do not do this. They offend over and over again. The work of David Lisak shows that they do not do this for the most part because they are confused about consent, they do it because they do not care.

Transformative justice can work well in school situations for a subset of carefully chosen, non-violent behaviours where the school are very careful to back the approach up with a zero-tolerance approach on victim blaming, and real sanctions for violence. It can work in these circs because children are still learning and growing and are pretty malleable.

Transformative justice may even have a role in some types of youth offending.

I think the opportunities for repeat-offending adults "set in their ways" to reform through transformative justice are pretty rare to non-existent, and it's an insult to the victims in this context.