Edinburgh News article on AWS

[Collidascope]

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/susan-dalgety-my-problem-with-men-who-self-identify-as-women-1-4677359#comments-area

I particularly liked this bit:

"Labour’s leader, the sainted Jeremy Corbyn, has made it clear that he supports the right of people to decide whether they are male or female, without a change in their legal status or any “invasive” medical checks.

Jeremy, if you think those checks will breach a bloke’s privacy, wait till he has a smear test, or gives birth, or even menstruates once a month. Oh wait, that won’t happen. Ever."

Yes! Brilliant article. It does seem that people are getting braver about raising concerns and objections to the transcult

She may have muddied the waters a bit by saying 'trans men joining the all-women shortlists'. I mean, I know she means ' trans people who are biological males who identify as women' but that's not what transmen usually means.

God, every article needs a glossary these days.

Yes!

Excellent article.

The aspect of gender dysphoria as a cornerstone of trans needs to be pushed.

A man having a disassociative disorder has no more right to all women shortlists than any other man. Or anything else reserved for women.

Gender dysphoria being a distressing condition should be highlighted.

Feminists have great sympathy for men who reject toxic masculinity. As would most women.

This deliberate repackaging of the condition, to mean they either are female, or feel female, needs to be halted.

We need to consistently bring it back to gender dysphoria as a condition, not a born in the wrong body fairy tale.

She may have muddied the waters a bit by saying 'trans men joining the all-women shortlists'.

I actually think the reason the article is so strong is that her language is so clear. She doesn't use trans cult terms like 'trans woman' or 'transgender woman', so everyone will understand that she is talking about men, whether she calls them 'trans men' or 'men who self-identify as women'. Everyone who reads it will get exactly what the Labour self-ID policy is about, whereas if she'd used 'transgender women', many would be confused.

Feminists have great sympathy for men who reject toxic masculinity. As would most women.

Have to point out here that most TIMs do anything but reject toxic masculinity. Many are the living embodiment of it.

I know you know this Datun . But I feel the need to point it out anyway, because most women's initial support for trans-identified men is based on the mistaken assumption that they have rejected masculinity and declared solidarity with women (as you say, most women have natural sympathy for anyone who appears to be hurt by the toxic strictures of gender).

When in fact nothing could be further from the truth - many TIMs exhibit pathological levels of misogyny and are extremely male-dominant in their behaviour towards women. The idea that a man has rejected masculine dominance simply because he adopts some of the outward markers of femininity (lipstick, dresses) is a myth that needs to be debunked.

She may have muddied the waters a bit by saying 'trans men joining the all-women shortlists'. I mean, I know she means ' trans people who are biological males who identify as women' but that's not what transmen usually means

Well, that is where I used to get muddled. I thought transwomen were women who are trans, therefore the mantra 'transwomen are women made perfect sense to me because I thought that it was people not taking account of their needs (sanitary products etc) because they thought they were men I still find it a minefield when you are talking about one then the other and I lose the plot. I am much clearer about it since reading and posting on here, but I think there are many people who get befuddled by the whole thing (and I think activists are happy to exploit this).

We need to consistently bring it back to gender dysphoria as a condition, not a born in the wrong body fairy tale.

Forgot to say, I totally agree with this, and in fact there are already legal structures in place in many countries for accommodating people with gender dysphoria - if it is classified as a mental health condition.

In one of her videos, Magdalen Berns pointed out that trans activists could have pursued trans rights under the banner of disability rights, which require the government and employers to make 'reasonable accommodation' for people with a physical or mental health impairment. For example, by supplying additional unisex bathrooms or change rooms alongside the men's and women's.

However, TRAs say it is an 'insult' to compare gender dysphoria to a mental health condition, and have chosen instead to create 'gender identity' as a new protected category itself, which obviously clashes with women's rights and indeed the recognition of sex as a legal category at all. That's because they don't want reasonable accommodations - they want to redefine reality for the rest of us.

Brilliant article - it's totally clear what she is saying, she is not skirting round anything and she makes her voice heard loud and clear.

Bravo! It definitely feels like women are becoming braver to speak out about this.

Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing.George Orwell, 1984

Found this on twitter - I really need to get round to reading this - it is refreshing to have an article that is not skirting round the issue.

It was from here : off-guardian.org/2018/01/26/synanon-the-brainwashing-game-and-modern-transgender-activism-the-orwellian-implications-of-transgender-politics/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

DonkeySkin

I completely agree that most TIMs display huge levels of masculinity.

I deliberately didn't clarify my post further. Partly, because actually I do believe there is a rejection of toxic masculinity in gender dysphoria.

And only from what I have read online of people who have detransitioned or, alternatively are just very self-aware.

And I will clarify that by saying I think it's a very small number.

But the reason I mentioned it at all is because of those people, I do think it's very useful to make others understand that gender dysphoria is a rejection of something, rather than identification with something else.

You're not born in the wrong body. I.e. the unwanted option of two.

You're born in a body you don't want.

It's a subtle, but crucial difference.

But I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

The other reason why I said compassion is necessary, is it's far more difficult to argue with a position of empathy than it is enmity.

And brings it back to less of a disagreement with an ideology and more of an understanding of a disorder.

Because at the moment, transitioning because you have gender dyaphoria is a dot in the distance of the list of reasons to transition.

Which is completely counter to why the legislation was written in the first place.

Great article, the evening news is quite mainstream so should get a fair few reading it.

Superb article.

She's going to get some abuse though. Very brave.

So far so good on the comments - maybe they have turned them off?

What's that "spot the woman" photo from, at the top of the article?

(They could all be men. Just not sure about the one in the orange top far right!)

None of the women in the photo are women I don’t think?

The one in the orange top? Those are some big forearms and hands...

The one on the right looks like Angelica Perduta who is an NZ tw

Thanks for clarifying Datun.

But the reason I mentioned it at all is because of those people, I do think it's very useful to make others understand that gender dysphoria is a rejection of something, rather than identification with something else.

You're not born in the wrong body. I.e. the unwanted option of two.

You're born in a body you don't want.

It's a subtle, but crucial difference.

I agree it is a crucial difference. And one we need to keep pointing out - that rejection of one's male body and/or masculine norms is by definition a male experience. It is not a sign that one is 'actually female'.

'Third gender' males from non-western cultures, like the Hijira of India, are a good example of this. Unlike the 'transwomen' of the modern western trans movement, they do not claim to be actually women. But it's also worth pointing out that their rejection of the masculine sex role does not lead to empathy or solidarity with women. 'Third gender' males like the Hijira tend to live very much within their own homosexual male subcultures, and display little interest in women's lives or political condition.

That's a big mistake that women make. We assume that men who are scorned by other men for failing to perform masculinity correctly are our natural allies. When that's never been the case: whether we are talking about gay men, 'third gender' men or trans-identified men - none have ever offered women any meaningful political solidarity.

So it comes back to your idea that we need to point out that dysphoria around 'maleness' is not the same thing as identification with 'femaleness'. That's a big misconception that arises because anything that departs from the masculine subject automatically gets chucked in the feminine/'non-man' basket.

You have to log on via Facebook to comment on EEN stories which probably deters folk. Not if the story's about traffic or trams - then you get hunners piling in!

One of the comments has used the phrase ‘if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle’ which you can’t argue with really (imo)

donkey

Third gender' males like the Hijira tend to live very much within their own homosexual male subcultures, and display little interest in women's lives or political condition.

Which does describe many TIMs.

We don't seem to have the kind of culture that can support that.

Western ideas feel far more constrained. There's not the ethereal, quasi religious sort of environment to accommodate it.

Unfortunately.

And yes. Women are not non-men.

Rejecting your maleness doesn't give you femaleness. It can't.

Strange isn't it that they are born in a body they don't want yet we understand that the majority don't have surgery to rid themselves of the most male part of their body.

Yes, I know surgery is drastic etc. but if their dysphoria was so extreme, wouldn't you think they would take the obvious course and get rid of their unwanted bits.

All of which leads us inexorably to a conclusion that the "dysphoria" is more AGF, than wrong body stuff.

New comment BTL - someone called Penny Tanous from University of West of England has reported the article to IPSO.