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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans extremism & schools

101 replies

greenlanes · 30/01/2018 20:22

I saw this today on TES. How can this crap be stopped?

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/transphobes-are-driving-childrens-confusion-about-gender-not-trans

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/02/2018 15:41

There's a popular misconception that X and Y chromosomes determine your sex, but in actual fact this isn't true

Bullshit.

With transgender, it was during the second and/or third trimester, the critical period when most of the differences between male and female brains are thought to arise.

Also bullshit.

DodoPatrol · 27/02/2018 15:41

Hugh, males are not female.

LangCleg · 27/02/2018 15:46

Another interesting thing I've discovered, is that sex is a lot harder to define than most people think it is.

Oh, do pipe down, Hugh.

The day a third gamete type is proven to exist, and that there is a type of human with the capacity to produce this third gamete is also proven to exist, is the day the human race ceases to be a sexually dimorphic species.

That day will be... drum roll... the twelfth of bloody never.

There are two sexes. These represent the reproductive potential of a sexually dimorphic species.

holycheeseplant · 27/02/2018 15:56

It's all here too:

fairplayforwomen.com/chromosomes-biological-sex-gender/

These are not extra sexes and nothing to do with gender identity as gender is socially constructed.

Everyone is a unique individual.

HughE · 27/02/2018 18:57

In this answer I wrote on Quora, I've included links to videos of a couple of people who are genetically male, but have developed as female.

www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Watch them yourself, and tell me which sex the people in them are.

Hormones, not genes, determine your sex.

Unfortunately, the idea that X and Y chromosomes determine sex is so deeply rooted in public consciousness that even most doctors assume it to be true, which is why we're now in a situation where they've exposed millions upon millions of unborn babies to hormones with gender bending properties.

If you have access to Facebook, I invite you to head over to a page I've set up, in an attempt to draw people's attention to the harm that can result if an unborn baby is exposed to synthetic hormones.

www.facebook.com/synthetichormonesaredangerous/

I think the transgender thing is likely to be just the tip of an even larger iceberg, of people who aren't trans, but suffer from one or more of the mysterious chronic health problems that are plaguing people in First World countries, which I think could actually be the result of being prenatally exposed to synthetic hormones.

Here are some of the other things which have been linked to DES exposure:

Infertility in both sexes, vaginal adenosis, endometriosis, endocrine disorders (hypogonadism in men; PCOS in women), depression, anxiety, autoimmune disorders, osteoporosis, degenerative disc disease.

Ereshkigal · 01/03/2018 14:59

There are two sexes. These represent the reproductive potential of a sexually dimorphic species.

This.

holycheeseplant · 02/03/2018 19:52

This is all getting a bit bogus science.

The Y chromosome is responsible for triggering the hormones that develop the male and female sex organs and secondary characteristics. There are rare issues with androgen insensitivity syndromes which result in intersex. But sex is ultimately controlled by the x and the y.

We've known for some time that increasing levels of synthetic hormones in water systems can affect fertility etc in animals and potentially humans but at the end of the day x and y do determine sex.

And as said before, those with intersex conditions do not wish to be associated with this debate.

Sanderz · 02/03/2018 19:59

I find this stuff all really interesting! holy I think the point is that after birth, yes, you only have your X and Y chromosomes to control which hormones you're exposed to. Before birth you are also at the mercy of hormones etc. in your mother's system, and at a crucial and formative time in your development. Interesting.

Datun · 03/03/2018 09:48

HughE

Are you going to answer my questions in my post of 27/02/2018 15:10?

Because this is a feminist form, talking about women's sex based rights/protections. Why we need them, and how they are being eroded.

You're quite welcome to focus on the causes of gender dysphoria.

That is immaterial to the way women are being disadvantaged by an ideology.

So how do my questions fit in with your theory?

Your left-field focus is misplaced, here.

You could tell me why, exactly, paedophiles end up being attracted to children, for instance. Which would be completely irrelevant, in terms of keeping them away from children. (And no, I'm not comparing paedophilia with transgenderism).

Gender dysphoria might have its causes. It's irrelevant, in terms of the reason why we segregate the sexes.

holycheeseplant · 03/03/2018 14:59

Thanks Datun for saying as usual what I want to say but can't quite find the words.

Though I think I did point out up thread the why's and whatfores of hormones etc have nothing to do with how biological sex matters, girls and women are vulnerable to men due to their sex and how gender stereotypes are damaging.

Garmadonsmum · 03/03/2018 16:58

Gender identity isn’t fixed as gender identity is bullshit.

Datun · 03/03/2018 17:00

holycheeseplant

Exactly. It's a pointless derail.

This is about sex based protections.

And as such, I don't give a flying fuck why half of transwomen are in prison for sex offences.

His viewpoint couldn't be more male centric if he tried. Oh, women, if only you understood.

Well you can talk about misogyny and its repercussions, all the day long day. In the meantime i'll take my space misogyny free, if that's okay with Hugh.

FearedAndLoathed · 05/03/2018 12:05

Conflation with intersex actually just furthers the argument against the likes of mermaids suggesting blockers. Why medicate to try push people into some binary.

FearedAndLoathed · 05/03/2018 12:07

At least I've found the sort of person that writes drivel answers on quora. The place you go when you don't have enough sources to write a wiki edit

titchy · 05/03/2018 12:20

Hormones, not genes, determine your sex.

No - genes, specifically the presence or absence of a Y chromosome determines your sex. Hormones determine your outward appearance. Usually that is the same as your actual sex. Occasionally it isn't.

SteelyPip · 05/03/2018 12:23

At least I've found the sort of person that writes drivel answers on quora. The place you go when you don't have enough sources to write a wiki edit

How do you do the ROFL emoji? Grin

HughE · 05/03/2018 19:17

@titchy
No - genes, specifically the presence or absence of a Y chromosome determines your sex.

Tell me, what sex are the people in these videos?

All 3 of them have Y chromosomes. If you watch the videos, notice how all 3 of them didn't even find out they were different from ordinary women in any way until they were teenagers. How does that tie in with your Y chromosome theory?

@Datun
The reason I haven't answered your questions is partly the insulting tone. However, assuming a TIM is a derogatory term for a trans woman, I can't answer those questions because I'm not a trans woman. I'm just a person who's been physically feminised by prenatal exposure to artificial female hormones, and also had part of my brain development pushed down the female pathway instead of the male one. Enough of me is female that I've never fitted in very well as a man, but enough of me is male that there's no way I could ever function socially as a woman, so presenting as such is a complete nonstarter, and not something I'd want to do. So I can't speak for trans women. I've been through a lot of the same stuff they experience though (such as being mercilessly bullied as a teenager for "being gay"). My endocrine system was also damaged by the hormone exposure, and in my early 40s seems to have finally packed it in. So I'm now dependent on hormone replacement, just as they are (although the hormones are different).

I don't know why you lot insist on being so insulting and so wilfully ignorant. Women are the target market for synthetic hormones far more than men are. They're not just used in fertility treatment and for preventing miscarriages and premature births, they've been (disastrously) used for postmenopausal HRT for decades, and they're the mainstay of all hormonal methods of birth control. Nearly all of you will have knowingly or unknowingly been given these drugs at some time in your lives, and I'd have thought you'd want to know about it, if the pharmaceutical industry and the public health authorities are hiding evidence of serious harm caused by these substances to both the women given them and their children.

titchy · 05/03/2018 19:38

Sigh...

If they have a Y chromosome they are male. It's not a theory it's a fact. They presumably have some abnormality which means their male-ness hasn't been expressed. All will be infertile.

Not sure why your mentioning artificial hormones either. We are well aware that birth control, HRT etc are artificial hormones. Don't confuse these with puberty blockers if that is the point you are so ineloquently making.

titchy · 05/03/2018 19:39

TIM stands for trans identifying male btw.

holycheeseplant · 05/03/2018 20:58

Are these women not intersex then? Androgen unresponsive? So male but the endocrine pathways did not develop? As said before, intersex people are different.

What medication affected you HugeE?

It's sad you were bullied and I'm sorry. This is the issue with society and its response to differences and gender stereotypes and of course those stereotypes linked to homophobia.

It is very hard for anyone who doesn't fit with peoples' ideals of what people should look like and kids and people are cruel. Eg facial disfigurements. More masculine looking women. More feminine looking men. That is what should be addressed.

springtimeforall · 05/03/2018 21:14

This is from an inspection report on an English school

Inspectors said children enjoy lots of different experiences, but that the school does not tackle “difficult and contemporary issues” such as extremism, radicalisation and gender orientation.

The primary school was being downgraded from good.

Datun · 06/03/2018 01:49

HughE

You may have read my tone as insulting, that wasn't my intention. It was exasperation.

We know what intersex is. No one has a problem with it, in terms of its authenticity.

It's not trans.

And conflating the two completely ignores the reasons women are objecting to the ideology.

It's a derail. That means that it has nothing to do with the issue we are talking of.

If you want to start a thread about harmful hormones to women, go ahead. If you want to start a thread about how intersex people are struggling, go ahead.

We are talking about removal of sex-based protections for women.

And in fact, if it wasn't for the trans debacle, you wouldn't have so much of a problem

People who don't look exactly like the sex they are, have been pretty much accepted in bathrooms, on a courtesy basis, for years.

It was never political. It was never being utilised against women to make a point.

Now, everyone is scrutinised. On the basis that there are a good number of men out there who gleefully engaged in violating women's boundaries.

HughE · 06/03/2018 14:10

@titchy
If they have a Y chromosome they are male. It's not a theory it's a fact. They presumably have some abnormality which means their male-ness hasn't been expressed. All will be infertile.

The "abnormality" for the first two is that their testicles failed to develop, so their prenatal development took place in the absence of testicular hormones. The third one does (or did until the NHS butchered her) have testicles which did produce testosterone throughout her prenatal development, however she has a mutation to her gene for the androgen receptor, which means the cells throughout her body are completely unresponsive to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all her prenatal development took place as if those hormones weren't there. Since all 3 people have developed as female not male, that shows it's not the Y chromosome that makes a person male, but androgenic hormones produced in the testicles.

Just to drive the point home, there is a condition called De La Chappelle syndrome, which causes genetically female (XX) people to develop testicles instead of ovaries. These people develop as male despite being XX. I guess since their chromosomes say XX you'd be happy to welcome such people into your women only spaces, penis and all!

I should also point out that the women in the first two videos were born with the full set of female internal organs (apart from ovaries). Through donor IVF and with appropriate hormone treatment to grow their uteruses to adult size, they can fall pregnant and give birth.

midwifediaries.com/looking-after-the-childbearing-mothers-who-are-genetically-male-swyer-syndrome-and-ais/

@holycheeseplant
Are these women not intersex then?

Medically they're classified as intersex because they have XY chromosomes and aren't male. However, there's no hint of masculinity to them, they're not in between male and female, they are fully female people. It's an example of how the doctors who came up with the system for classifying abnormalities of sexual development, didn't actually understand the biology of how sexual development takes place.

What medication affected you HugeE?

I don't know for sure. I've got many of the same symptoms that seem to commonly go with DES exposure in natal males. I was born with a hydrocele, one of the genital abnormalities that often seem to occur in DES sons. I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, another thing that commonly seems to go with DES exposure. I experienced the same pattern of very shy, socially withdrawn behaviour as a teenager that was commonly seen in teenaged DES sons. In my 40s, the subclinical hypogonadism I've had all my life abruptly became much worse, and I got sick with all the typical symptoms of acute hypogonadism. This is another thing that commonly seems to happen with DES exposure (and I think may be the deciding factor for many late transitioners who've been sitting on the fence up until that point).

On the other hand, my mother had no prior history of miscarriage, nor (according to my dad) were there any medical problems during the pregnancy that might have led to DES being prescribed. There's also the fact that nearly all the DES exposed "males" I've talked to identify as women, whereas for me it's very much a case of not really being male or female, but kind of a mixture of the two.

Especially when I was younger, my mother used to suffer from depression a lot, and I can remember some quite outlandish behaviour from her (throwing things at my dad, smashing stuff etc). Looking at the parts of my psychology that appear to be female, whatever happened to me must have happened very early in the process of wiring up the permanent structure of the brain (which starts around 16 weeks after conception). That's also just around the time a pregnant woman will first feel her unborn baby moving around inside her.

The thought I had was, perhaps my mother was in a depressive state during her pregnancy with me, and when she felt my first kicks, instead of being overjoyed, she decided that she couldn't cope with another baby so soon after the first (she fell pregnant with me just 3 months after my brother was born), and took an overdose of something in an attempt to terminate the pregnancy.

I did a bit of snooping on some maternity forums, and the first thing most unhappily pregnant women looking for a DIY way of ending the pregnancy seem to think of, is an overdose of birth control pills. I was able to establish that they were using birth control pills for contraception at the time she fell pregnant with me (the first generation high dosage ones), and there's something otherwise inexplicable that happened later in my childhood, that makes me think she could have been hiding a guilty secret along those lines. But I'm unlikely to ever know for sure. Both parents are now dead, and the chances of medical records having survived from a pregnancy more than 50 years ago are remote to say the least.

However, if that is what happened, then it opens up an enormous can of worms. It means that other synthetic hormones besides DES can also interfere with male development, including those in the oral contraceptive pills that 150 million women worldwide use every day for contraception. Furthermore, although the birth control pills my parents used contained a small amount of estrogen (ethinylestradiol), their main component was the progestin norethisterone acetate. This would mean that it's not just estrogens (such as DES) that can interfere with male development, progestins can too. In most places, DES, and all other estrogens, had been withdrawn from use in pregnancy by about 1980. Progestins were never withdrawn though, and some are used during pregnancy even now.

Perhaps you can see why I've been trying to alert people to what these drugs are capable of doing? It's bad enough when it was just DES, but if what I think happened to me is correct, then the entire gamut of hormonal contraceptives and progestin-based miscarriage treatments can do the same thing. That would explain why more and more trans kids continue to be born, even though DES was phased out 40 years ago!

shedalight · 06/03/2018 14:14

I wish that these posts had not derailed some important issues about schools. HughE, any chance of you starting your own thread rather than taking over this one any further?

moonmaker · 06/03/2018 21:32

That's all very nice but if one person could explain what it means to look like a boy but 'be a girl on the inside' I'm sold. Do they not see that this is the absolute crux of the matter but it is never actually explained ?

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