Female to male transition - do the same anti-women arguments apply?

[EggYolkPie]

Apologies if this is ill thought out. I’m still trying to understand issues around transgenderism - until a year or so ago I thought anyone who opposed transgender rights was a bigot. Not anymore.

I understand that transgenderism supports narrow definitions of gender that society have created. For example, women are gentle, quiet, caring, pretty and delicate. Men are strong, leaders, macho and dominant. This is clearly anti- women. I also understand that women lose out when men (who now say they are women) occupy roles that have been reserved for women. For example, Lilly Madigan, who is a man, taking the Women in Leadership role in the Labour Party. Grrrr.

But most of the arguments against self- identification of gender are around men identifying as women. What about the other way round? What about women who say they are men? Do the same feminist arguments apply? Do women still lose out? Do men lose? I think not because women are a marginalised group with more to lose than men. But I’m still trying to figure out my thoughts on this.

Very interested to hear your views...

I think women do still lose out, because any one of us who likes things that men are supposed to like is now told that this means that we must not really be women, but men. There are many older lesbians who are dismayed at the increase in transmen, because they feel that this will lead to the eradication of butch lesbian women, as they are all now transitioning instead.
There was a tweet yesterday by a tm called Steven Whittle which said ‘my wife always says she knows I’m a man because I don’t know the names of any of my children’s friends’ which just blew my mind really. So he doesn’t think much of men’s parenting abilities, and also clearly thinks women should do the shitwork and emotional labour of parenting. And of course “he” is actually a female, but has seemingly found a way to opt out of the crap bits (actually it sounds like a good idea)

Of course Steven whittle’s life is still supported by his wife remembering trivial shit that is beneath his manly notice.

Yes. It’s pretty shit when women who want to be physical, sporty, dominant, naturally hairy and “macho” get told they need to cut their breasts off and pack their pants and take testosterone and pretend to be men

It's different in some ways and similar in others.

There is no harm to the class "man" if women self-identify into it. Men aren't an oppressed class and so have little, if nothing, to sacrifice.

But, as others have said, it's wrong if there is cultural pressure for non-feminine women to transition and it does seem as though this is on the increase, especially among young women who would otherwise be butch lesbians.

It astounds me.
I have an older friend who is sporty, never wears dresses or skirts, has short hair, likes football etc and she is married to a woman.
Basically doesnt conform to typical female stereotypes. But she’s a woman, and would never claim to be anything less.
If she were born 30/40 years later it’s likely she would have been labled a transman and pressured to transition.
It’s just unnessesary, and yes totally anti feminist.

Thank you all. Yes, yes, this all makes sense.

museumum you’re totally right. That is a very depressing thought - women who want to feel comfortable with their ‘masculine’ traits are encouraged to cut their breasts off. Good god.

And maybe men do lose out to an extent. Thinking about my son, I’d be upset for him if he felt he had to identify as a woman to feel comfortable with his ‘feminine’ behaviours.

Men don't lose out when women identify as trans, but women still lose out when women identify as trans. The loss of a 'type' of woman, the loss of female characteristics, all now consumed by the 'Male' stereotype. The category of 'woman' becomes smaller and less appealing, frankly.

I've been told I'm a closet transman on the internet twice. I'm really not. I just wear what's comfortable, and have a wide range of hobbies and interests - oh, and I'm Gender Critical.

It's 100% anti women. Women are told that that they must be transmen if they aren't typically "feminine", if they don't wear makeup, heels and dresses because God forbid, having your own personality and likes outside of the socialised norm is alien.
No matter what happens, transmen so far have only reached the headlines for doing what they were born able to do which is give birth. I don't know offhand of any transmen that have reached the top echelons of business, entertainment, military rank or sporting elite. They reach the news because they have had a baby.

Men don't lose out at all from transmen in their "territory" take the 3 examples of sport, prisons and safe spaces. Feminists are all too aware of how allowing transwomen in these areas is harmful and unfair for all sorts of reasons.

A transman in sport won't beat a natal man, their female physiology will still put them at a disadvantage (besides I think testosterone doping is banned in sport too so on that basis I think they are excluded from some sports anyway)
Prisons. Putting a self identified male in prison in with the males could potentially lead to that transman being made pregnant. Again their physiology will be a disadvantage in that environment.
Safe spaces. A transmen isn't really a threat to males, even if they are a perv of the highest order a transman will never be able to stalk a man home, rape them and get them pregnant.

Men do not see transmen as a threat and neither should they because they are not a threat, (so far zero trans men have committed crimes serious enough for sentencing) but a transman is equally vulnerable to male sexual violence as women are.

It is a feminist issue because many feminists want to keep transmen in the category of female and transwomen in the category of male for all sorts of reasons.

Sorry first paragraph "feminists are all too aware of how allowing transwomen in these areas is harmful and unfair to women ...

I did read that there is a hierarchy of labels which goes like this (obviously there are more labels but this is simplified):

1. Straight man
2. Straight-passing gay man
3. “Camp” gay man
4. Straight woman
5. Straight-passing lesbian
6. “Butch” lesbian

I don’t know what others think of this structure but I thought it was quite interesting. As you can see, right at the bottom of the pile are “butch” lesbians. So by transitioning to be a straight man, they are effectively skipping from the lowest to the highest, from number 6 to number 1. I can understand why that would be appealing.

I don't think men are going to lose anything to transmen, simply because they won't permit it.

Transmen in the priesthood? No.
Transmen inheriting estates and titles? No.

And it says everything that this 'no' is given with perfect confidence and everyone (mostly) just accepts it. In Mumsnet terms, this 'no' is a full sentence.

Women's spaces can be invaded and their concerns mocked and their questions framed as bigotry... but there's close to zero chance anyone born female is going to appropriate male sacred/aristocratic/financial authority.

been told I'm a closet transman on the internet twice.
By who and why?

So by transitioning to be a straight man, they are effectively skipping from the lowest to the highest, from number 6 to number 1. I can understand why that would be appealing
Good point!

There's no damage to the class 'man' when women transition, because that class rejects non masculine men. Trans men that dont pass, arent accepted as men.
There is no violence from trans men towards biological men, there is no threat they can make that is effective. They are still the ones at risk from violence and rape.

There is damage to an individual trans man if she is raped. She learns she does not pass as a man, will be treated with contempt by them, and has distanced herself from other women in an irreversible way.

There is damage to the people who belong to the class 'woman'. There is only one way to succeed and that is as a man, its a mans world, but you cant pass. You are too small and weak.

I've also been told I'm a closet trans man and told 'why don't you transition'. Thats from trans activists.

Trans people have been sold a lie - you cannot move out of your class. The upper class don't marry the working class, its difficult for them to maintain a simple friendship.

Brandon Teena didn't beat anyone, didn't rape anyone, didn't kill anyone.

I’m not sure I understand your post, powershowerforanhour. Can you expand?

Brandon Teena had sex by deception which I consider morally equivalent to rape. Teena didn't represent any real threat to men though.

I wonder where trans women and trans men fit in that hierarchy?

I would currently put trans women between straight men and gay men and trans men just above butch lesbian (perhaps dependant on how much they 'pass' but even those that superficially pass don't seem to be making great strides in the world).

Another issue to consider is that with self-ID, transmen would be excluded from women-only lists and services as they don't ID as women. I think it makes them even more marginalised, even though I have seen some arguing online that it is only fair since they now benefit from male privilege . This is further limiting the scope of what females can be and look like.

Just to add, that is based on a UK centric hierarchy rather than somewhere like Brazil.

I suppose that's the thing malaguena many trans men may feel that they are going from 6 to 1 or 4 to 2/3 but are they really. TRA's would have you believe they have huge privilege in their chosen gender but I doubt that is borne out in reality.