Female to male transition - do the same anti-women arguments apply?

[EggYolkPie]

Apologies if this is ill thought out. I’m still trying to understand issues around transgenderism - until a year or so ago I thought anyone who opposed transgender rights was a bigot. Not anymore.

I understand that transgenderism supports narrow definitions of gender that society have created. For example, women are gentle, quiet, caring, pretty and delicate. Men are strong, leaders, macho and dominant. This is clearly anti- women. I also understand that women lose out when men (who now say they are women) occupy roles that have been reserved for women. For example, Lilly Madigan, who is a man, taking the Women in Leadership role in the Labour Party. Grrrr.

But most of the arguments against self- identification of gender are around men identifying as women. What about the other way round? What about women who say they are men? Do the same feminist arguments apply? Do women still lose out? Do men lose? I think not because women are a marginalised group with more to lose than men. But I’m still trying to figure out my thoughts on this.

Very interested to hear your views...

I wouldn't think Transmen aren hugely privileged because they're still the ones who go through pregnancy and all of the stuff that comes with transitioning anyway. Also do people really believe they're male and award them male status or do they just see them as an lgbt token?
Transwoman are always making the papers, gaining awards and getting into politics, the only time you ever hear about a transman is when they've given birth and it's "man gives birth" fanfare.

I agree that transmen are no threat to men, but still a threat to women. After all, it's only because of transmen that we have the "pregnant people" and "chest feeding" arguments because they are, biologically, still women and have all the baby growing bits that women have, but claim to be men.

Whilst they claim to be 'men', pregnancy and breast feeding have no protection because it's not a sex discrimination case if 'men' can get pregnancy and breastfeed too.

Essentially, women lose out whichever way round it works.

Oh, and yes, I agree with that hierarchy. One of my closest friends is a 'butch lesbian'. She can see the benefits too.

*get pregnant

I can't remember the name of the poster but I read a link on here not long ago to a blog where TRAs made a statement that the definition of a woman is someone who behaves on a way that is consistent with stereotypical female behaviour. I think this message is being sent out to the younger generation a lot (although not usually as overtly). So the other side of this is that someone who does not conform with a stereotype of a woman must be a man. I fear that this undoes so much that women have fought for in terms of equality and is leading some young people to make decisions that they may regret. For example, my teenage DD has a female friend who plays a lot of sport, has an athletic build, loves science and maths, has no interest in posting duckface selfies etc. She clearly feels that this makes her out of line with being a straight woman. However, she is attracted to boys so she has started talking about being trans. I don't think she is, I think she's just a girl who doesn't fit stereotypes but I don't think she can be blamed for thinking that that's not acceptable.

I made the mistake of watching a bbc3 video about 'what not to ask a transperson'. Hello Paris Lees and Munroe Gergdorf.

The transman they used was an adorable wee lesbian. I wanted to hug her and tell her sweetheart, not one person on this planet thinks you're a man. I dare say the university environment makes these delusions seem real and protected, but beyond those walls she has a harsh reality coming her way.

I agree that transmen are no threat to men, but still a threat to women. After all, it's only because of transmen that we have the "pregnant people" and "chest feeding" arguments because they are, biologically, still women and have all the baby growing bits that women have, but claim to be men.

I agree that this is the narrative being pushed. But I'd question the authenticity of its source.

Transwomen have a strong, vested interest in eliminating the biological differences between men and women.

You see it all the time. Abortion is a privilege, pussy hats are transphobic, vagina is exclusionary.

It's necessary to blur the distinction is in order for them to continue to co-opt womanhood.

I don't doubt that gender dysphoria in a woman could be exacerbated by reference to her anatomy. But I don't see it coming from transmen.

Firstly they don't have the power to change language.

And secondly, they're a vanishingly small number.

I believe transactivists are doing what they do best, which is co-opt other people in order to push their own agenda.

been told I'm a closet transman on the internet twice.

Yup I have been told this too. I had mentioned how I do not have a 'gender identity' as I feel like me, I don't feel like a woman, I just am one. And the person asked me how I would feel if i woke up tomorrow as a man. I said it would freak me out a bit but I would get used to it and might actually like it. I also pointed out that that thought experiment is daft as transpeople do not live as one sex then all of a sudden become the other sex. But yeah...because of this I am apparently a transman.

Other notable things I have heard from transactivists online are that men prefer transwomen as sexual partners as women who have had kids are 'loose' down there and transwomen aren't, along with women who have had kids have 'saggy tits' where transwomen do not. Was an interesting conversation, if completely batshit! Ended in me being called a disgusting bigot, like most conversations with TRAs do

Other notable things I have heard from transactivists online...

It's all just misogynistic rhetoric though, isn't it?

Because I'm guessing in the real world most heterosexual men would want to have sex with an actual woman rather than a man who has had his dick chopped off and a fake sex tube made.

And any heterosexual man who hated women so much he'd rather have sex with a man masquerading as a woman is a man I think most women would be happy to forgo.