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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

All current rape and sexual assault cases to be reviewed - BBC

207 replies

UpABitLate · 27/01/2018 09:57

here

This raises a massive amount of questions and will be taken by many quarters to mean that most accusations are malicious and that lots of men are in prison for nothing / can be sent to prison on a "woman's word" (the evidence is fitted to make sure of that).

There is a line in the article which says:

"It also begs the question of why the review is to rape and sexual assault cases when many believe the problems of disclosure are systemic, he added."

I think this just shows up that our justice system has deep issues and worst in the area of sexual offences. We seem unable to "get it right" and the entire thing is already balanced on a foundation of laws evolved from property law, a societal tendancy to disbelieve victims, and here by procedural cock-ups.

I also note that new evidence that weakens cases does not mean it didn't happen - but of course this is how it will be taken. Undermining victims massively.

And yes - why only these types of cases when the problem is systemic? Because of an underlying perception, again, that women and girls lie (them being the majority of victims in court).

I think we need an overhaul of how approach sex crime. Trying to tackle it in our adversarial system, with the cultural underpinnings we have, is just not working. These crimes are effectively legal, the difficult in prosecuting is so high. It's only really if there's lots of evidence of other simultaneous crimes (other physical harm from violence, threats with weapons that are found, murder) that our laws are suitable.

Other countries have an inquisitorial approach, maybe we need to look at that.

And the agencies involved in all of this need to sort their shit out. On the one hand we have withheld evidence, on the other hand we have warboys. The system is not working for lots of people.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 20:59

I wish I could give you a hug, whenireported. And if any of the rape apologists on this thread decide to have a go at you it will not turn out well for them.

whenIreported · 27/01/2018 21:00

Thank you, upstart.

It's not an easy process and I do wonder why people believe there are so many women out there who make up false allegations.

It's an incredibly stressful thing to have to go to and there really is nothing in it for me.

The idea that I might be getting something out of receiving phone calls from a sexual offence liaison officer while I'm walking my kids home from school is just bizarre.

Yes, some women lie. More men rape than women make false allegations, though.

All I've done is tell the truth, and that has involved having to talk about what I was wearing, how much I had to drink etc etc.

I'm happy to answer those questions, though.

There was only one criminal in that room that night. And it wasn't me.

whenIreported · 27/01/2018 21:02

Thanks, Kittens.

They can say what they like, I'm not scared of anyone.

DeleteOrDecay · 27/01/2018 21:07

WhenThanks

PatriarchyPersonified · 27/01/2018 21:14

Nobody has suggested that things are "alright the way they are", they have just objected to some of the more extreme ideas on here.

Just a few of the crackers we have had so far:

"Switch the burden of proof" - so guilty until proven innocent? Nice.

"Some kind of register for men who are a danger even if they aren't convicted." - Guilty even if found innocent. Bloody hell, really?

"An offense of reckless penetration" - 🤨

And the old classic that comes out on these subjects all the time, gaslighting and accusing anyone who objects of being a rape apologist/minimiser - "I see you"?!

Surely the idea of these kind of discussions is to win more people around to your way of thinking? Now re-read some of the stuff that has been mentioned on this thread and ask yourself, why would any man want to be an ally to people with opinions like this?

The fact I haven't got a legal qualification to my name, yet I've had to explain basic legal principles of intent and liability to some posters says it all. The same posters who feel qualified to list all the ways a complex and difficult area of law should be changed, yet quite obviously haven't even read a GCSE level book on the subject.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 21:16

It's cute that you think that any woman in her right mind would want you as an ally.

whenIreported · 27/01/2018 21:20

"Some kind of register for men who are a danger even if they aren't convicted." - Guilty even if found innocent. Bloody hell, really?"

This kind of already exists in that anything that's reported can be recorded as evidence of bad character.

Personally, for me, I just want to make sure the man who raped me thinks twice before doing it again. The fact that he's now known to police might be enough.

That acting as a deterrent would be a really good outcome.

DeleteOrDecay · 27/01/2018 21:24

why would any man want to be an ally to people with opinions like this?

We don't want men as allies. We want them to stop raping and abusing women.

UpstartCrow · 27/01/2018 21:25

The Sex Offenders Register can include people who are considered a serious risk, even before they are convicted.

PiffleandWiffle · 27/01/2018 21:35

The man would have to explain what he did to actively get consent

How long is that consent valid for??

1 minute,?

Time immemorial?

It's of no validity at all unless you're then willing to say that any woman who is proven to have given consent to a man can't then be raped by that man.

Graphista · 27/01/2018 22:00

"women do lie about rape or distorts the truth" I believe them - you clearly don't.

"damages a man's reputation forever" no evidence of this even men that are CONVICTED are still supported and return to previous jobs. Victims are forever questioned, disbelieved and LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES. None of your posts reflect ANY understanding of that.

"Has really opened my eyes to the fact women do fabricate. often "
A statistics prove you wrong
B evidence from victims proves you wrong
C that attitude is now recognised by eg mn's "we believe you" campaign as being harmful to victims.

"its a long drawn out process, all support is for the victim loss of friendships, job, marriage.... its not pretty."

A what the hell is WRONG with supporting victims?
B it's not even true! Men accused of rape are supported by people who don't even KNOW them let alone the facts of the case - seen most obviously in celebrity cases like ched Evans where the victim was trolled online mercilessly. But I've also seen it happen in non celebrity cases where victims are harassed disgustingly.

"You can choose not to believe that false accusations happens. You can also choose to think its not that bad for an innocent man to be accused of rape." It's a damn site less stressful and has fewer and less harmful effects than BEING raped.

"You have completely excluded the category of men who had an honest belief that they had consent." That DOESN'T mean rape didn't occur, it means men need to get better acquainted with ACTUAL consent.

"Why can't the requirement be that men need to exercise some due care and attention before penetrating someone?" Exactly!

"How was I to know she was too drunk to consent?"

If in ANY doubt DON'T!

Until this post

"I also note that he's assuming that during a rape trial women will lie about being rapes but men accused of rape will tell the truth"

The one thing that WASN'T and often in this debate ISN'T mentioned/addressed is 😱 criminals LIE

"She never said no/stop/that hurts"

"She was flirting with me all night"

"She propositioned me"

"She didn't seem that drunk" (victim barely conscious/unable to stand).

"my bet is that some names would come up over and over and over again." I agree I think that's highly likely.

"Guilty even if found innocent" not guilty is NOT the same as innocent. With this kind of crime in particular, it takes a LOT for the case even to reach court.

No - enough is enough. The balance needs to be redressed.

PiffleandWiffle · 27/01/2018 22:22

The balance needs to be redressed.

"Just sign this love, to say you consent - Whilst being filmed on a phone to prove you're not being coerced."

Is that where you want to go? It's a place that 99% of men would be quite happy to go.....

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 27/01/2018 23:10

The fact I haven't got a legal qualification to my name,

Really?

Gosh

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 23:29

It's of no validity at all unless you're then willing to say that any woman who is proven to have given consent to a man can't then be raped by that man.

"When people tell you who they are, believe them."
Maya Angelou

KateSheppard · 27/01/2018 23:57

"I haven't got a legal qualification to my name, yet I've had to explain basic legal principles of intent and liability"

Wow, you're really smart, like BOOK smart.

PatriarchyPersonified · 28/01/2018 09:23

Graphista

"damages a man's reputation forever" no evidence of this

Really? So I assume you'd be happy if your husband/son/brother was accused of rape when you know he didn't do it? After all, no big deal right? Men are just babies to complain.

That DOESNT mean rape didn't occur, it just means men need to get better aquanted with what ACTUAL consent means

Actually it does mean exactly that. The legal test is that the man had an honest belief that he had received consent, and that the 'reasonable person' would also have had the same belief in the same circumstances. Therefore by definition, if a jury (average people) hear all the evidence from the prosecution and the defence and come to the conclusion that the man had an honest belief that he had received consent, then they too would have had that belief if it had been them instead of him.

So in that circumstance, it was an honest misunderstanding and by definition not rape. But of course that doesn't matter to you, because it doesn't affect men when they are accused of rape does it?

PatriarchyPersonified · 28/01/2018 09:36

DeleteorDecay

We don't want men as allies.

Good luck with that then. How far do you expect to get?

whenIreported · 28/01/2018 09:57

"So in that circumstance, it was an honest misunderstanding and by definition not rape"

Can we talk about this in a real-world scenario?

Just how easy is it for there to be an "honest misunderstanding" about consent? Could you please offer an example of this, PP, one which you would be happy to present as your defence in a court of law?

TransHobbit · 28/01/2018 10:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whenIreported · 28/01/2018 10:06

I'd really like you to answer my question PP, because your posts keep referring to "misunderstandings" as being a category of false rape accusations.

You reference two friends who have been "misunderstood" in such a way. I'd like to know how these misunderstandings occur?

I didn't want my rapists penis inside my body. There was nothing for him to "misunderstand" he just woke me up and started fucking me without a word.

Is that a "misunderstanding" in your eyes? There I was lying there asleep - did he "mistake" that for consent? And if so, how?

What do these misunderstandings look like to you, in practice? Not saying no? I didn't say no because he'd started raping me before I knew what was happening. Does that mean it was a "misunderstanding"?

Funny how you can be punched in the face and nobody asks why you didn't say no first. But with rape it's different.

Please, let's have an example of one of these misunderstandings, I'd love to hear it since you keep referring to them.

PatriarchyPersonified · 28/01/2018 10:07

WhenIreported

I can give you two.

Man and woman on date, go back to hers afterwards and go to bed together. Enthusiastic consent given, and man penetrates woman. During sexual act, woman decides she isn't happy any more and wants it to stop. However doesn't communicate in any way to the man. Next day she is upset and tells a friend, who encouraged her to report it.

Second scenario, man and woman (work colleagues) drinking at hotel bar during work trip. Things progress and they go to bed together. Both tipsy but neither of them drunk. Next day woman embarrassed and upset as she has cheated on long term partner and her friends now know. Decides she 'had to much to drink' and didn't have capacity to consent. Reports to police despite everyone agreeing that she was fully capable when she went back to his room.

That is a loose description of the two 'misunderstandings' that I mentioned in a previous post. They are both true accounts that I have been on the periphery of in the last 10 years.

And no, neither of them was me.

whenIreported · 28/01/2018 10:07

TransHobbit, quite.

HairyBallTheorem · 28/01/2018 10:11

I immediately thought of that case too, TransHobbit

It was an absolute shocker.

TransHobbit · 28/01/2018 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whenIreported · 28/01/2018 10:15

"despite everyone agreeing that she was fully capable when she went back to his room."

Who is "everyone" here?

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