Stats on why we have women and men sports?

[InaConfusedState]

I came across the story of Fallon Fox shattering Tamikka Brents eye socket a while ago. It’s so patently obvious that a woman is at serious disadvantage fighting a person with a male skeleton, muscle structure and build, I really couldn’t see why Fox wanted to compete against a woman let alone be allowed to do it. It led me to here and reading fascinating (and diverse) views.

After talking to someone about this case, it got me thinking about why we have women’s sports in the first place. I always thought it was because women are structurally different to men and therefore unable to compete against them on a level playing field. But if men are now able up compete against women, is this not true?

I wondered if anyone has links to evidence and stats that show why women have their own sports.

For example, what does going through puberty as a teenager do for male strength, muscles, etc compared to a female?

What advantage does testosterone confer?

What are the typical levels of testosterone in make and female sportspeople?

If a man competes as a woman, does he have to artificially bring his testosterone levels down (and if so is it to the same level as a woman?). Does the fact he’s been through puberty give him any advantage regardless of whatever testosterone level he now has?

What else - hormones, physical build - do men have as an advantage over woman that makes them faster/stronger?

I’m really interested in these physical aspects as it’s what got me (and several friends) questioning what it means for women if a man can become a woman.

here is an article about how women's world records are generally about 90% that of men's

This is one (of the many) things that peak transed me and one of the things that upsets me most.

I have a young female relative who excels at a sport and is highly successful at a regional level with ambitions at national level over the next few years.

I've watched and admired her determination, training six times a week around school commitments since she was about 11 years old.

It breaks my heart that she might reach national and international levels - the pinnacle of all her sacrifice and dreams to have it stolen from her by someone much bigger and stronger who feels like a girl inside. Someone whom would probably be a very average male athlete.

This is an interesting article

The physiologist is from NZ where it seems acceptable to talk about these things. In the US/Canada she probably would be silenced. She is only specifically talking about testosterone, but it's clear that much more research is needed on all differences in male and female anatomy and what advantage can be gained.

Otherwise get rid of sport segregation by sex - at least be honest about it

Fascinating discussion. I play snooker and pool and have been beaten by a woman before. It isn’t about strength as if you are hitting a snooker ball hard then you aren’t doing it right.
I think it’s purely a socialism thing and I recognise that snooker hall would be intimidating to women. I can’t see any other barrier other than lack of practice.

RaySwan i imagine longer reach is an advantage & also general height as you are bending over the table? (As a teenager my greater height was an advantage at snooker over my smaller but more skilled brother)
Although just a theory & i dont know if that's born out by the ranking players?

Yes I agree it would be an advantage (height and reach) not strength though. And anything in snooker is achievable through practice. There are lots of Chinese players on the snooker circuit now who aren’t very tall.

Some players are naturals at snooker, for most it is a learned sport. But even the very best have to practice 6-8 hours per day, every day.

I would like to see some diversity in these sports. I don’t see a downside at all and it’s a shame that we are segregated.

I think men have indeed an advantage beyond mere testosterone levels.

The thing is, if you have a natural advantage (height, strength, build, sex) you may feel it is just your "natural advantage", I am not sure men are very vocal about the trans issue with women's sports, are they?

As a 6ft1 woman, I often have an advantage of height over other women, and it is something I see as my "perk", an advantage bestowed on me by luck/nature

It does not mean, however, that on average men are not taller and stronger than women. They are.

The trans issue, and self-identification will ruin women's sports, I think...

True, but if you just put women against men then isn’t that simplistic. I’m 6”1 and probably tall on average to a man my age but I will never be a basketball star. I will never be able to compete in hundreds of fields for that matter.

I guess men aren’t worried about trans people because they aren’t threatened as much by just another guy to compete against. It’s different for women as they don’t have the same physicality as men.

That's fair enough RaySwan, suggesting mixed competition for some sports is grand. Even removing sex segregation from all sport, while not something I agree with, is at least logical.

Allowing some men to compete as women on their say-so seems really odd to me. Either all together or separate by some definable criteria.

I agree. In some sports ie boxing I don’t think it’s possible. There is a video on YouTube of a world champion female MMA fighter fighting a male who had a few fights but wasn’t exceptional. In fact she far outclassed him in aggression and skill. Yet he won in the second round. It has some interesting statistics during the fight that tie in with what was posted above in regards to bone density, strength, muscle mass. I could post the link but it’s very painful to watch.

That's Fallon Fox, isn't it? I agree it's horrible to watch. I've seen a couple of videos of Hannah Mouncey and Caroline Layt too, and think it's unsafe to allow them to play against women.

Sadly they are the tip of the iceberg, because until 2 years ago the IOC mandated surgery; the fact that men no longer have to undergo any medical treatment obviously open the floodgates.

Not to mention that at schools level, boys who identify as girls are allowed to compete with no treatment, no restrictions at all. It's obvious to me that it's unfair that boys can compete against girls when they are 100%, physically, male. And if they are going to allow it, they should allow all boys to compete, not just the special "I feel girly" ones. That way the ridiculousness will be exposed, and we can sort an alternative for girls who aren't male

cycling.today/transgender-cyclist-dominates-womens-cycling-race/

Transhender Cyclist wins in female category. It does help having far greater lung capacity, muscle density and the ability blood oxygenation capabilities than non trans female competitors.

They say all Transgender sportspeople should be free to compete as their chosen gender without ANY medical intervention.

First paragraph a bit garbled there sorry.
Actually I heared somewhere that Jillian Bearden came first and another Transgender woman came second in the biggest female cycling race in Arizona. This would not surprise me and it's a sign of what's to come.

Men aren't worried because it doesn't affect them directly. Silly analogy but if you could self classify a horse (as a man ) and then enter it in a men's 100m race then there would be uproar.

As well as the strength and muscle advantages, men and women cannot complete in any activity that has a cardiovascular or aerobic fitness aspect. Men have a staggeringly higher ability to power muscles with oxygen than women (measured as VO2max). In short our muscles can extract more oxygen from the blood than women's muscles can. This accumulation of advantages makes equality in competition impossible.
www.mytreadmilltrainer.com/vo2-max-men-women.htm

If we are talking about cycling, we should really mention Molly Cameron - she is currently (I think) competing as a man, but wants to compete as a woman.

Ironically she has apparently now been told she can't compete in the men's events any more because she is legally female [completely and utterly baffled]

Silly analogy but if you could self classify a horse (as a man ) and then enter it in a men's 100m race then there would be uproar.

Sorry, did you just call my analogy silly. Since when have horses had the ability to talk.

The fight I’m refering to was Lucia Rijker.

Someone should tell Molly Cameron that she'd be better picking a sport that doesn't require tight lycra. I can see her cock quite clearly

It was the Fallon match that led me to starting this thread. It’s been very informative and interesting reading.

From the info in the thread, I think women’s sport is changing to ‘people with a testosterone level of less than x’ category.

It seems any other physical differences between people who were born and underwent puberty as a female vs born and underwent puberty as a male are immaterial, regardless of the advantages it gives the second group over the first.

I also think it’s just plain unsportsmanlike for the men that do this to women. The pic of the cyclist above - who would objectively look at the pic and place him in the women’s category over the men’s category?

I'm interested in this to OP and will read later. In the meantime I was looking over the weekend for all the participation requirements for different sports and found the following article, originally from "Law in sport", which lists several of them towards the end. They vary greatly, but most include some provision for looking at things on a case by case basis, which I think is important.

Apologies my link on VO2 max did not work (it's worth a read) www.mytreadmilltrainer.com/vo2-max-men-women.html

The "case by case" solution used to be part of the Olympic Committee requirements - each case would be individually considered. Now they (and it seems most other sporting bodies) are jumping straight to self-id.

And self-id can't be questioned, considered on an individual basis or challenged at all. To do so would be transphobia

So provided an individual ticks the "female" box and has a testosterone level for a year at under X (X currently being equivalent to approximately 5 times the higher end of normal for a woman and approximately the lower end of normal for a man, but who knows where it is going), they can compete as a woman no questions asked.

I think the only case by case basis should be for genuine intersex people personally. And even then it needs to be as fair as possible. If trans people want to transition, then they no longer compete, or compete with the men still. This goes for TIFs too, if they are on T as it is doping really.