Men who destroy their families - help me understand

[missymisdemeanor]

I have NC for this. A young woman I worked with took her life a few weeks ago. The investigations are now complete and the Police have discovered that she was subject to long term sexual, verbal and emotional abuse from her father. There were thousands of abusive emails and text messages. She died in a very violent and horrific way and it is difficult to process the mindset she must have been in.

I work with children and I know so many families that have been ruined by men. So many women and children's lives destroyed. I feel so angry. For years I have had this funny quip where when someone says 'not all men are like that' (NAMALT) I reply 'you're right, but all the people like that are men' (APLTAM).

How can I make sense of the experiences of families I know that have been destroyed by men having affairs, being violent/aggressive/controlling, gambling/drink problems, abandoning the family to 'find themselves'? So much narcism and selfishness, entitlement, anger, vengeful hatred and destruction.

Please can someone recommend any reading material? My thinking is jumbled and I need to sort my head out. I work with many fantastic men, have a loving DH and fantastic DS who sometimes wonders aloud if I am sexist :( (but he does understand), maybe I am. I can't reconcile my anger. If any wise women are out there please help. I suspect it's my age - layers and layers of experience forming patterns in my brain over 4 decades. Any advice?

Have a read of Karen Ingala-smith's website, counting dead women. She has some good articles on there about this kind of thing.
You are on the money as far as I'm concerned and it is not sexist at all.

kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

Following this. I support a 16yr old girl who's father is a serial adulterer and drinker, has left her Mums confidence in tatters and is an
Influence to her younger brother. She loves her Dad but thinks he's an absolute knob and wishes her Mum would leave.

I'd love to be able to get some sort of material to learn from as I'd break my heart if she were to make the same decisions in her life.

Have you read Naomi Alderman's The Power? Not completely sure if I recommend it or not, but it's (although ficticious) relevant to this topic and mostly a good read. I enjoyed the 1st half very much, but got very annoyed (and distressed) by the ending.

Sorry, probably not a helpful reccomendation - fiction, not informative for real life.

The Power is a great book and very thought provoking.
I have to admit most of my feminism is online. I haven't read a lot of stuff. Although I read an essay about contraception in the book "Nasty Women" the other day and it was really good.

I bought DS The Power for Xmas - I'll borrow it :)

I've read Karen Ingala-smith's website before but will do a refresher although I suspect both recommendations will only serve to feed my growing rage.

I struggle with everyone's denial of what's going on and the way people know something is wrong but do nothing to stop or report it to Police/SS.

A few people have attacked their families and everyone blames having a breakdown. No - they are controlling abusers who've been acting that way for years.

I am at a loss and struggling to process this, will be actively seeking reading matter to try and gain some perspective and stop myself feeling so thoroughly depressed about it all

Hi OP. What you are talking about is all. too. true.
I don't know if you've heard of dastardly dads - it hasn't been updated since 2016 but it shows a pattern.

My other half did a consultation with the police and apparently 60% of call outs are for 'domestic' incidents. What does that say?

Joining the dots and understanding the pattern is what feminism is all about - well the second wave. Discovered through consciousness raising. Read any second wave feminist and this will start to make sense.

Although some might not be so into Gloria Steinhem what she said is true: "The truth will set you free - but first it will piss you off"

Women are cruel too. Women destroy families too. Women abuse their children too. I was abused by a woman. I was abused by my own mother. My own mother didn't love me enough to not hurt me. Saying shit like the above makes out as if the abuse that I suffered wasn't bad enough or was real because it wasn't perpetuated by a man. It was real, and it was bad. You can't separate the world into black and white like that. Anyone could be abusing their children. It could be the poster above me (no offence just making a point), it could be your mail person, it could be your son's teacher, it could be your DH, it could even be you. And you wouldn't necessarily even know and you most definitely could not rule someone out just by looking at their sex. If you genuinely believe that the only people who hurt their families are men then I think you need some therapy.

I think we need to fight the good fight because women and children are victims, but moreover they are overlooked. Their suffering is acceptable because “he was having a breakdown”, “she provoked it” whatever. But I am always always always screamed down when I say women abuse. Some because their are trapped some because they are bad. Ignoring that women abuse ignores the suffering of the women and children they abuse.
But fucking yes, domestic abuse needs to be called abuse (no domestic) and it should be prosecuted every dam time because only then will it be taken seriously.

I reply 'you're right, but all the people like that are men.
You're so fucking wrong here.

Dunno - I've certainly come across abusive women. It's less likely to be physical abuse, but psychological abuse can be very destructive. And many are alcoholics etc.

As to why people abuse others - well they're usually from abusive backgrounds themselves. Maybe violence is societally more acceptable in men, but I'll never believe it's innate to men, any more than it's innate to women. I think men just get more opportunity to be violent, and it's more accepted. In fact it's often expected and praised. That's down to societal structures.

If we start saying men are essentially violent, then in my view we're saying that biology is destiny, and I don't believe that, for one minute.

By the way, the reason people usually don't report stuff to police and social services, is that they fear ending up on the receiving end of abuse themselves. I speak from personal experience, and the person I got the abuse from was the female 'victim' not the male perp. He was violent, but he also backed off the minute he thought the police might become involved. Like you, this wasn't a situation I got involved in by choice, but by proximity - in my case geographical. And you then find that in a lot of cases social services are absolutely useless the police were better IME, but they've improved in leaps and bounds recently in terms of dealing with domestic violence.

For some people, abusive behaviour is normal. It's all they've ever known, and they don't understand other ways of relating. For someone who didn't have that experience as a child, who was brought up to have empathy, it is incomprehensible. For people from abusive backgrounds, the idea that you can live without abusing people is incomprehensible - it's the only way they know how to survive psychologically or relate to people.

My honest advice to you is that it sounds like you're suffering from a sort of post traumatic stress, as we all would do if someone we know died so horribly - it's a very dark situation you've been dragged into. Try to distract yourself with nice stuff, long walks, art galleries, whatever you enjoy, get some support for you.

My view FWIW - you need to actually distance yourself psychologically from this if you can, you can't help this woman now, and you will drive yourself into mental illness if you continue to try to understand it. As I said before, I'm speaking from personal experience.

It's the old 'put the oxygen mask over your own face first' advice and it's true. You can't help anyone while you're not strong and healthy yourself.

There's no denying it - men are responsible for the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crimes and there is a definite 'male stamp' to what they do.

Yes women can be arseholes too, but that doesn't take away from the clear pattern of male perpetration.

You are wrong in saying all the people like that are men.

But the vast majority are. And I find it so depressing. I have a wonderful DH and DS but I am coming to hate being around other men. My anxiety is peaking at the moment so I may not be at my most rational.

Eggson I am really sorry about the abuse you suffered. I recognise that it is as real and painful as any abuse commited by a man.

For people from abusive backgrounds, the idea that you can live without abusing people is incomprehensible - it's the only way they know how to survive psychologically or relate to people.

That is not true. Many, many people come from abusive backgrounds and do not then automatically abuse others

Absolutely not true. Many, many people with deeply abusive backgrounds do not go on to perpetuate abusive patterns. That is a deeply offensive thing to say.

I am really struggling with this at the moment too. My ds is nearly two and he’s the kindest, most loving, beautiful little boy and I’m so scared that he will grow up to be a man like the rest of them. Surely all the ment by hurt people had mothers that loved them and wanted them to grow up good? So how do they go from lovely little toddlers to men who rape/hurt? Ds is growing up in a stable home with parents that love him but I worry he’ll grow up to be part of the culture where rape jokes are funny and viewing women as objects is the done thing.

And there are arseholes like Ted Bundy who were the apple of their mother's eye - who do the worst possible thing.

So many many people make damn sure their kids don't suffer like they did.

I agree GuardianLions, physical violence is more often carried out by males. I don't think men are innately violent though, I think it's cultural.

Testosterone is often assumed to be associated with violence, in both men and women, but there was some interesting psychological research a while back that showed it's actually associated with status seeking behaviour, not violence per se. Worth taking a look at

blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/testosterone-bumps-up-status-seeking-behavior-not-aggressive-risk-taking/

More importantly, though, it didn't even have to be actual testosterone.

"Indeed, the cultural concept of testosterone itself might be to blame for some antisocial and aggressive behavior. The researchers found that of those who strongly believed they had gotten the testosterone pill—whether or not they had it or the placebo—actually "behaved much more unfairly," the authors wrote. "

So my view is that if you're a male whose only way of seeking status is to be violent, you'll be violent. If you have other - more socially beneficial - ways of seeking status in your life, you won't be.

That is not true. Many, many people come from abusive backgrounds and do not then automatically abuse others"

They don't come from solely abusive backgrounds though. Empathy is learnt. You will find that they had one person at least who showed them kindness and empathy.

When you hear of someone who has been brought up in a perfectly loving home who suddenly becomes violent, you're not being told the truth about the home, basically. Violence is also learnt and it's very frequently hidden if it's domestic violence. Look at the recent case in the USA of the 13 imprisoned children, in a supposedly close knit community.

Ted Bundy courtesy of Wikipedia.

"In some interviews, Bundy spoke warmly of his grandparents and told Rule that he "identified with", "respected", and "clung to" his grandfather. In 1987, he and other family members told attorneys that Samuel Cowell was a tyrannical bully and a bigot who hated blacks, Italians, Catholics, and Jews. Bundy's grandfather beat his wife and the family dog and swung neighborhood cats by their tails. He once threw Louise's younger sister Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping. He sometimes spoke aloud to unseen presences,and at least once he flew into a violent rage when the question of Ted's paternity was raised."

Absolutely not true. Many, many people with deeply abusive backgrounds do not go on to perpetuate abusive patterns. That is a deeply offensive thing to say."

That really wasn't what I was saying. The point I was making is that you don't become abusive unless you have an abusive background. I'm explaining the question put by the OP, which is why do people abuse. If you're determined to examine every word of that and take offence, rather than understanding the plain meaning, go ahead, and continue to believe that people just abuse because of original sin, or whatever. I'll continue to believe that behaviour is the result of nurture.

Then say that. It’s a simple enough distinction to make.

And your attempt to set yourself up as being somehow opposed to me in your outlook on what causes abuse is strange. You know nothing at all about my understanding of it, nor my opinion on that.