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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vegan Feminism

75 replies

cista · 26/01/2018 15:49

I'm hoping we can have a reasoned discussion about this.

I've been vegetarian since I was 11, much longer than I've been a feminist. I became a feminist when I went to university at 18. I became vegan at around 22, after learning more about the reality of the dairy industry. I never really saw the connection between the two areas until a bit later, but now it seems obvious. The majority of animals in the dairy industry are female. They are literall abused because they are female.

I realize that not everyone has the same compassion and concern for animals as I do, and that is fine. However, I would like to hear what other feminists think about this. All opinions/ questions welcome!

Smile
OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 15:55

I do understand what you mean, but male chicks are killed almost immediately in vast numbers, and male dairy calves are either killed very quickly or kept for veal/meat. I'm not sure that's any different/better/less bad than the female animals being kept for eggs/milk.

newtlover · 26/01/2018 15:55

I think you are overthinking this
I don't believe the concepts of male/female as they are used by feminism have much relevance to animal welfare. Yes, dairy cows are female but if by some bizarre chance bulls lactated you can be sure they would be exploited too. You could also argue that the dairy industry treats males worse, as they are slaughtered early. Again it's not because they are 'male' in the sense we apply the term to humans, it's because they are not productive.

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 16:01

The information you get from PETA is mainly from the USA and most of it doesn't apply to UK farming. Our welfare standards were higher, until people voted to leave the EU.

The UK has many areas such as the Welsh hill farms. They can only grow grass because of the thin topsoil and wet cold climate. We can't eat grass or hay. But sheep and cattle can convert it into products we can use.

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 16:08

I don't think welfare standards are what were being referred to, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Either way, I agree that if the farming industry could engineer male cows to also produce milk then they would equally be used as female cows are.

glenthebattleostrich · 26/01/2018 16:12

I realize that not everyone has the same compassion and concern for animals as I do, and that is fine.

I think this makes you sound incredibly smug and patronising.

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 16:13

I dont see veganism as a feminist issue; I see it as another controlling stick to beat women with.

KissMaCis · 26/01/2018 16:15

I think when we are literally fighting to protect our sex and safety, veganism isn’t pressing. It’s a totally different issue.

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 16:15

Why is that?

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 16:15

That was to @UpstartCrow.

newtlover · 26/01/2018 16:34

I agree with Kiss, there are more urgent issues for women to address. Be a vegan, fine, but it's not going to dismantle the patriarchy- they'll just sell you almond milk.

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 16:35

Perhaps your feminism can inform your veganism, but your veganism cannot really inform your feminism.

lizzieoak · 26/01/2018 16:36

I’m a long-time vegetarian, moving over to vegan. I don’t think it’s a feminist issue because male animals get murdered rather than used in a long term way. I think it’s animalist, rather than feminist.

HairyBallTheorem · 26/01/2018 16:48

Didn't we have a thread on this a few months back?

Agree with PP that male animals get a bit of a bum deal too. I agree with Assassinated

WiggyPig · 26/01/2018 17:07

I'm vegan, and I often find vegan groups incredibly sexist.

"EWWWWW that's a chicken period!" - no it's not, and periods aren't gross unless you're a ten year old boy

"URRRGGGHHHH that's cow's boob milk!" - yes, all mammals lactate, it's not inherently gross because it's from a female animal

Then you get the people who want earnestly to tell you how it is that insemination of cows is "literally" rape and that chicken keeping is "literally" the enslavement of females. Often with images of actual rape or slavery alongside. And let's not get started on the racist / Holocaust memes.

Oddly enough women don't tend to take that well to being compared literally to battery hens and even less well to being told they're "speciesist" if they don't...

Sarahjconnor · 26/01/2018 17:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 17:22

AssassinatedBeauty
Perhaps your feminism can inform your veganism, but your veganism cannot really inform your feminism.
Thats a better explanation than mine.

I dont think framing veganism as a feminist issue - something that women should be concerned about - is honest.
World farming is a human issue, we all eat. So is animal welfare. Imo we should all be concerned with farming methods and standards, and issues such as GMO's, as well as environmental issues.

To do that we need to be well informed. And the fact is, all human activities have an effect on our environment. Flying in chick peas grown in Turkey is not environmentally friendly. Neither is irrigating crops on a large scale - soybean production has contributed to the USA becoming a dust bowl.

HairyBallTheorem · 26/01/2018 17:29

Sarah that reminds me of something someone said apropos of vegetarianism and animal welfare - that it is better to buy organically sourced milk and make sure you eat organically sourced pink veal than to be vegetarian and drink milk coming from intensive farming where the male calves are effectively "waste" and go from slaughter to be incinerated, while dairy cows are slaughtered after 7 or 8 years (natural lifespan more like 20).

I think a lot of meat eaters and dairy consumers don't realise that currently there is very little market for calf meat hence you are not only contributing to the death of the calves, you're contributing to them "dying in vain".

(Full disclosure. I do eat meat which I try to source as ethically as possible - largely because I don't actually think stunning an animal so it doesn't know what's coming, then dispatching it painlessly is morally wrong, because I don't believe animals have a conception of their own mortality. So for me what matters is how you treat them while they're alive, and how painlessly you can kill them. I was vegetarian for over 15 years, but went back to meat-eating for health reasons.)

BahHumbygge · 26/01/2018 17:56

I’m an ex-vegan of several years. I used to believe in the full intersectionality thing, in that speciesism was as much an axis of oppression as race, gender etc.

Then I had a falling out with some other SM vegans who questioned my commitment when I merely posed a social dilemma question. It led me to fall down a rabbit hole and discover Lierre Keith’s book The Vegetarian Myth.

In this she outlines her own journey into and out of veganism as it wrecked her health (degenerative spine disease, anxiety, depression, digestive problems etc). Also how she woke up to the fact it’s not animal product consumption that’s harming animals or the environment, it’s the context that’s taking place - factory farming, feed lots, grain feedstuffs plus grain-based arable diets for humans. Agriculture is basically biotic cleansing - you take a prairie or forest, you strip it of every living thing, down to the soil bacteria, you apply poison, you apply artificial fertiliser (massively fossil fuel heavy - we can either eat “poo”… fertilise the soil with dung, or we can eat “fossil fuels”… fertilise the soil with CO2 intensive Haber Bosch fertiliser). Then you draw down rivers killing every aquatic thing in them for irrigation. Bees and other essential pollinators are killed by the poisons, which uphold a significant part of the ecosystem on which myriad other animals depend.

So basically eating a local organic permaculturally or polyculturally produced diet of grass fed meat & dairy, vegetables, fruit from local orchards etc is far more sustainable, ethical and has a lower “suffering footprint” than eating almond milk from california, which are sucking the ground so dry contributing to the many wild fires there. Tofu from Argentinian soya, the agriculture of which requires huge mega-hectare field systems that are totally monocultural (ie otherwise totally dead zones) and pesticides that are causing horrific birth defects in the human population, never mind what it’s doing to wild animals. Quinoa from South America, the production of which for hip westerners is pricing out locals of their traditional foodstuff. Even just the humble grow your own lettuce in the back yard requires valiant snail control efforts, so maybe not so vegan after all. In short, the whole journey of soil to table requires death in its roundest sense, which ever way we eat.

The way I see it is that we need to eat in such a way that minimises disruption to the wider ecological system, so very local community level animal-integrated permacultural systems. That way we minimise impact on the wild where by far the greater number of organisms reside and we minimise impact on them.

The shift to grain based agriculture in the neolithic is what allowed civilisations to flourish, in that land and stores of grain could be hoarded. Hierarchies became established such as monarchy and patriarchy… those plebs and sheilas became necessary to control as broodmares, soldiers, shipbuilders and navvies to help expand the imperialist project. I see democratic, community based, low impact farming systems essential to demolishing such hierarchies. Nourishing the soil is a feminist act!

www.zoeharcombe.com/2011/08/the-vegetarian-myth-lierre-keith/

library.uniteddiversity.coop/Food/The_Vegetarian_Myth.pdf

Sarahjconnor · 26/01/2018 18:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 18:05

@BahHumbygge how long were you vegan for, before deciding to eat meat/animal products?

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/01/2018 18:07

Also, is it totally impossible to be a more ethical vegan and not consume almond milk, soy, quinoa etc?

Is being a "bad" vegan better or worse for the planet than being a "bad" meat eater, or is it roughly the same?

Missymoo100 · 26/01/2018 18:09

well cows are subject to selective breeding to be either meat producers or milk producers- so breeds for milk production, the males are not considered useful and either killer or sold for veal.

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 18:10

The only sustainable way to eat is to eat local produce, everything imported has a high carbon footprint and relies on fossil fuels for transport.

TerfWarz · 26/01/2018 18:10

I'm vegan, but don't see it as a feminist issue.

SurfnTerfFantasticmissfoxy · 26/01/2018 18:24

The majority of meat animals are fairly evenly split between male and female, and if anything the males have a slightly higher chance of ending up on a plate as you only need one bull per 30 odd cows or 1 tup per 25 ewes etc for breeding.

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