Trans friendly thread - a follow up!

[QuentinSummers]

I wanted to start a new trans friendly thread and say a big thank you to our trans posters who have posted long and eloquent posts about the transphobia they have suffered, who perpetrated it and how it has affected them.
curry, pidgeon and harv.
Thank you for sharing those painful experiences with us. I am sure I'm not alone in saying I stand with you in your right to be recognised as transwomen and live life free of violence and harassment.

Also thank you to the people who have trans family members and are concerned about how the current push for self-ID is affecting them.

for all.

I love this board.

And there's a move to make the 'E' in terf stand for 'exterminatory

That will make them look rational.

Urgh, I reread what I wrote and I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly.

I am not suspicious of Debbie Hayton. I think, though, that a genuine wish on her part to be accepted for who she is, and a genuine wish on our part to be accepting, together with the shared terminology of 'woman' for two different sexes, has led us all into an unholy mess, stirred up by those who are not remotely accepting and are entirely unasseptable, to quote Supernanny.

Anyone who has been unhappy and is trying to make their life more bearable has my 100% support xx

Yes, great, but what about when two unhappy people clash in their needs, TruthStar?

I feel like most of these "just dropping in to virtue signal!" comments could be summed up as "I haven't actually thought about this and you can't make me!"

Your interpretation is generous. Personally, I think that many just want to shut us up, silence us and keep us subordinated and scared - you know, like the good wimmins we are supposed to be.

I'm talking about all the trans people who mainly lurk, not the TRAs.

I have spoken to/read posts about trans day of remembrance and it's incredibly clear people genuinely feel they are going to be killed for being trans, despite the fact that's not something that happens in the UK.

When you have organisations like stonewall publishing this kind of stuff, is it any surprise?

@Truthstar

I would like to think we all agree on that. No-one on here has any problem with someone deciding to present in a way society traditionally associates with the opposite sex if that makes navigating their way through life more comfortable for them.

But we still have to have space to debate the difficult questions.

For instance, is it ethical to put a child on puberty blockers when they are too young to understand the implications in terms of possible side effects (eg loss of bone density) and future sexual function? (Remember Gillick competence grew out of a trial regarding access to contraception - which protects girls against life-long consequences of adolescent decisions to have sex, not opens them up to life-long consequences.)

Or when a woman asks for a female HCP to do her smear test, and finds herself confronted with a trans HCP. Whose rights win? The woman's right to control who gets to touch her genitals, or the HCP's right to practice their profession without being discriminated against? There's no "sit on the fence till you get piles" option available here.

The legal and social world are full of these issues - women's sports, women's prisons, women's rape crisis centres. You can't stick your head in the sand with a bland "let's be nice to everyone", because sometimes in the real world there are hard choices to be made, and some decisions really are either/or with no middle ground.

As a trivial and hypothetical example, TruthStar, I offer you this:

If DP is happier to sleep cuddling up, and I'm happier having more room and getting some distance from the bloody snoring, do I need to make DP happy at my expense?

(Oops, might have slipped slightly away from the hypothetical there.)

dodo

I have spoken to/read posts about trans day of remembrance and it's incredibly clear people genuinely feel they are going to be killed for being trans, despite the fact that's not something that happens in the UK

That may be true, I am fearful sometimes, though statistically (yes I checked after all the 'trans-friendly' support groups decided we were all being killed all the time) it is far more unlikely for me than, for example, women.

But I'm not fearful of women who are asking questions, or who understand the realities of mine and others situation and don't see how that first into this current 'narrative'.

I'm fearful of the subset of men who do want to actually physically harm me (and they are probably the same sort who want to hate/harm many people)

I must be honest and say that it does upset me when people don't want to call me a transwoman, as that is how I describe myself. But it isn't women who have completely wrecked the trust and honour system we had going so I don't blame anyone who says it at all, I understand.

It's just a shame that that same kindness that meant people were happy to, of their own free will, make life a bit less painful for me has been taken advantage of by a large group of homophobic, woman hating, violent shitheads.

FWIW, I would still call a transwoman who was a decent human being a transwoman in real life, because when you like people you don't want to hurt their feelings. But in terms of strangers on the internet? Yeah, there's a wariness there that wasn't a few years ago, and that's sad for all of us.

Except for the angry shouty violent MRAs and fetishists who've taken over trans activism, they seem to be having the time of their lives.

I'm happy to call a trans woman a trans woman and use pronouns.
People who present female but commit male crimes/act male I would call a TIM as they don't deserve the courtesy of having their preferred title respected (Lily Madigan, Tara Hudson, India Willoughby)
People who just "identify as" I might call men. Danielle Muscato, Alex Drummond, Davina Ayrton etc.
I can totally see why some women are starting to refuse to call any male a woman because it leads to a slippery slope and having to justify your position (as I'm sure I will in a minute).
But it isn't fair to people trying to manage their gender dysphoria not to help them by using their preferred title.

One thing I will never do is accept "trans women ARE Women". Because that just isn't true.

Sorry, Pigeon. That was me. I would always previously have been happy to say 'transwoman'. No, I'm uneasy about it, and I feel shit about that. But the language seems to have taken on a life of its own and had some really unfortunate consequences.

I'm happy to call a trans woman a trans woman and use pronouns
People who present female but commit male crimes/act male I would call a TIM as they don't deserve the courtesy of having their preferred title respected (Lily Madigan, Tara Hudson, India Willoughby)
People who just "identify as" I might call men. Danielle Muscato, Alex Drummond, Davina Ayrton etc
I can totally see why some women are starting to refuse to call any male a woman because it leads to a slippery slope and having to justify your position (as I'm sure I will in a minute).
But it isn't fair to people trying to manage their gender dysphoria not to help them by using their preferred title

One thing I will never do is accept "trans women ARE Women". Because that just isn't true

I agree with every single word of this

The thing is, I used to know what someone meant by the term transwoman -- someone like (I assume, can't see you from here!) Pigeon, Harv, Curry, Debbie Hayton etc. Totally happy to call those people transwomen if that's your preferred term.

Now, god knows what it's being taken to mean.

Kick me if I'm sounding patronising, by the way. Not intended.

Has anyone linked this thread to the last one?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3147810-Trans-friendly-thread

Even after years of watching this whole thing escalate and get weirder and weirder I still had a moment of "wait, what?" when I saw the video of that guy in Wales who I think works for Stonewall now with the lush facial forest who says he's "expanding the boundaries of womanhood". When I was a young person first engaging with what would now be called the queer community nobody would have called someone like that a trans woman.

It's like the Twilight Zone, everything's gone all wonky and words no longer mean what you thought they did.

Oh no please don't feel uneasy for saying it! The wonderful thing that I discovered about this forum while lurking is that discussion on these difficult things is 'allowed'.

Also sadly I think it's just got to a position where it needs to be said.

I am aware of the biological and mental disorder realities for me, and though it was pleasant for people to overlook those in the past I also believe it is dangerous to do so now in the majority of cases in light of what is happening (especially on the internet)

I'm probably even more of a 'TERF' than most as I actually think a tighter GRC is called for ( I don't really understand why you can 'legally' become another sex if you still have the sex organs of the body you are trying to escape from - but then I only really understand my own situation)

And the term 'identify' is a pile of wank.

Sorry, my blood pressure shoots up whenever I think about what a wreck of everything the TRA's have made for those trying to live in peace.

And I agree, it appears that the nutters want 'transwoman and 'woman' to have literally no meaning at all, anyone can be either one. It's a free for all, grab the label you fancy.

It's just a shame that that same kindness that meant people were happy to, of their own free will, make life a bit less painful for me has been taken advantage of by a large group of homophobic, woman hating, violent shitheads.

Yes. The horrible thing is that for every person that I would be happy to do that for, it seems that today there are a hundred that I wouldn't.

This is a massive backlash against women and I feel as though I must assert and defend my boundaries with no quarter.

I'll continue to treat trans people in my social circle as women. But I'm afraid that's the best I can do at the moment.

I'm sad for you, Pidgeon, I really am.

Like, men can wear skirts. That is allowed. That is OK! But clearly this person has no issues with his body or overall appearance at all, and has not "transitioned" in any sense, he's just put on a different outfit. I too have many different outfits in my wardrobe. What does this have to do with either sex or "gender"?

The people who drop in to virtue signal always seem to think we're all a bunch of conservative church ladies and it's sort of grimly hilarious because I dunno about everyone else but I've spent most of my life around alterna culture and have always had friends who were GNC, whereas the virtue signallers sounds like they have an idea of how gender roles work that wouldn't be out of place on The Flintstones.

Nice thread. Very much agree with everything on it, as ever you wonderful people articulate my thoughts better than I can.

I was talking to my Mum yesterday and she called me a terf, I tried to explain why and what I was thinking but she wouldn’t have it! It’s nice to have a reminder that actually we’re not all demon harpies that wish trans women didn’t exist.

"I'm happy to call a trans woman a trans woman and use pronouns.
People who present female but commit male crimes/act male I would call a TIM"

This doesn't really make any sense to me. A women is an adult human female, not someone who behaves in an acceptable way.

This seems to me as if you are saying men can be women until they do something wrong? Why do the seemingly nice men get to use the word women, but others don't? What is the definition of woman?