Trans friendly thread - a follow up!

[QuentinSummers]

I wanted to start a new trans friendly thread and say a big thank you to our trans posters who have posted long and eloquent posts about the transphobia they have suffered, who perpetrated it and how it has affected them.
curry, pidgeon and harv.
Thank you for sharing those painful experiences with us. I am sure I'm not alone in saying I stand with you in your right to be recognised as transwomen and live life free of violence and harassment.

Also thank you to the people who have trans family members and are concerned about how the current push for self-ID is affecting them.

for all.

I love this board.

Well said . Me too. Its a sanity saver!

I was reading the end of the last thread at insomnia o'clock and did think that, ironically, the thread had genuinely become a trans friendly thread, just not in the way the op intended or believes. In the sense of 'true trans.'

It's so clear from that thread that those who shout transphobia really, really haven't a clue what they're referring to.

I think the greatest thing I've taken away from it is that it's really important to clarify with less knowledgeable people at the start of a discussion that 'trans' is not the homogeneous group the media and stonewall and many tra want us to believe.

It really warmed my heart, inbetween all the pain and utter fucking tripe. (I withheld searching twitter too, your reactions were enough!)

So thank you, especially curry, pidgeon and Harv

Lovely post Quentin. Agree with it whole heartedly.
What a positive start to Friday. Thank you!
And thanks to Curry and Pigeon for sharing.

Oh, and Harv!

Thank you all for your contributions pigeon curry and harv

It must be difficult to be discriminated against and ignored by people who pretend to be your own just because you disagree with them. I'm sorry that has happened.

This is why , are important.
I'm sorry I just called you both a pigeon curry

Let's eat, grandma.

vs

Let's eat grandma!

(Let's not)

I hope no-one minds - I've lifted this from the thread on Ron Liddle's article.

I thought in the spirit of finding common ground it might be helpful to focus on the overlap area. We are all of us quite happy to "accept gender variation" in the sense of crossing over society's set of stereotypes in whatever way suits us. That's an enormous area of overlap.

What we don't buy into - both "rad" fems and transwomen who're uncomfortable with self-ID - is treating gender as a thing, and pretending biological facts don't exist.

It's also helpful as a picture in getting a handle on exactly how feminist perspectives differ from conservative religious views. Both accept biological sex as real, but (contrary to the twitter rantings of some TRAs) feminists don't see it as determining your behaviour, abilities and rightful roles, whereas conservative religious types do buy into determinism.

Love love all around

At the end of the previous thread, reference was made to a Transwomen who has been ejected from the LP. Datun provided a link to Debbie Hayton's Twitter

mobile.twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/955417650309599233

Do we know if there have been other expulsions?

I thought she'd been removed from the labour against transphobia group rather than the party, but haven't been keeping up so may be wrong!

So what was Hayton's crime, suggesting that maybe some of what they were doing might be a teensy bit illegal?

Actually, you are right. I think it was just the FB group. I find twitter difficult to understand ...

I gather from twitter that it was the 'labour against transphobia' FB page that removed Debbie, not the Labour Party.

As far as I can make out from twitter Debbie's 'crimes' are that being sane and intelligent she has worked out that the current TA activism 'transwoman are woman' 'cotton ceiling' 'my penis is female' is doing absolutely nothing for her aim, which is to be genuinely socially accepted by woman and go about her daily life free of ridicule and discrimination. In fact if anything this 'movement' is rolling back her rights. Because of this she'd like to discuss with TA's if self-ID is really the way forward, she'd also like to discuss with woman what their objections are and how a solution can be found. As the trans right movement appears to have been co-opted by misogynistic, homophobic lunatics who care nothing about Debbie or her rights and even less for woman, they are against this. Debbie has also admitted on twitter that since she doesn't actually have a GRC she is in fact male.

Basically Debbie has critical thinking skills, this is a big no, no.

I think Debbie herself is on here if she wants to correct anything I've put.

Great thread Quentin btw you've actually inspired me to go back and read the original thread now which I had previously written off as a GF sealioning bunfight! I always liked curry's posts I've not come across pigeon and harv before.

Goodness, we've got a cast of thousands here! I did find Debbie's blog which I quite enjoyed. !

That's a lovely opening statement Quentin and thank you. Did anyone else notice that the lady on twitter who was upset about the last thread referred to the posters as "attacking" the op? Much as the speakers corner TRAs shouted that the terfs were "attacking" when they were in fact a group of women assembling to talk politely amongst themselves - much like this and the last thread in fact. What is this narrative? Where did it come from?

Bad Debbie!

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/597/706/4bc.jpg

Faceicle I don't know where it comes from, but it seems to be how they operate. If misgendering someone is "actual violence" then maybe stating an opinion they do not agree with is "attacking" them. This gives them a justification for a "counter-attack".

Any one who does not agree with them (even actual trans people) is "transphobic".

I can see exactly where is comes from.
When someone starts questioning if they are trans, the overwhelming narrative is they won't be accepted, they will be bullied and attacked, they are at a very high risk of being murdered or isolated until they are suicidal.
That narrative in itself makes someone feel unsafe. Similar to how many women feel about walking somewhere alone after many years of "you will be raped, kidnapped or murdered".
Then there's the whole demonisation of "TERFS" as evil witches who want to eradicate trans women, commit violence against them and incite murder/hatred (doesn't matter that this is total bullshit).
So these people feel unsafe in society already and on high alert. Then someone asks them a question about biology and their brain goes "aaargh! It's a TERF! They want to kill you and you are at high risk of murder! You are under attack! Run or fight!"
They are scared. They genuinely feel under attack. And for that I blame TRAs/stonewall and mermaids for pushing a load of bollocks as "fact".

Meanwhile the evil scary TERFs are busy trying to get our cats to play with the stuffed reindeer catnip toy we got them for Xmas...

But seriously, some day I hope all the kids who've been brainwashed into thinking that a bunch of mostly older radical feminists wanted to hurt them will look back at this stage of their lives and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

I've just read some of Debbie Hayton's blog and articles, and I feel very saddened.

A few years ago, I would have been welcoming her as a woman, without that slight hitch in what to type, except perhaps into sports-n-nudity situations. I strongly suspect she isn't the type to shove in where not wanted.

Now? I don't know. I feel that even acknowledging someone like that as 'a woman' rather than a transwoman or even as a transwoman rather than trans-identified male is shifting that line in the sand. I want to welcome her; but she is right when she says 'Women who were once enthusiastic allies of trans people are now more suspicious.'

And this:
'Pieces of paper may give me the right to enter female spaces, but it can never prevent women from leaving en masse at the same time.' True, but where can the women then go? What about students like the women someone was mentioning a few days ago, being given a roomshare with a transwoman, and being told they are bigots (and left without a room) if they object?

They are scared. They genuinely feel under attack. And for that I blame TRAs/stonewall and mermaids for pushing a load of bollocks as "fact"

Your interpretation is generous. Personally, I think that many just want to shut us up, silence us and keep us subordinated and scared - you know, like the good wimmins we are supposed to be.

The spreadsheet is gone but the folders are still available on the Google Drive link.
And there's a move to make the 'E' in terf stand for 'exterminatory'.

That shift to a more radical position isn't actually our fault, though. The trust has been broken and we can't even start rebuilding it until the attempts to bulldoze through our boundaries stop.