so disappointed in Germaine Greer

[patrickharviesorganicmuesli]

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/germaine-greer-me-too-harvey-weinstein-women-spread-legs-movie-roles-actress-a8173161.html

Who has said that women 'spread their legs' for Weinstein movie roles and 'it's too late now to start whingeing' re MeToo.

What a complete let down.

Oh great! Then I shall wander off FWR again.

It's akin to trying to explain defend not believing transwomen are women... all you get is the TERF hate.

Here all you get is 'oh, so depressing, fuck my life that women should say such things' and cries of Sock Puppetry.

You haven't made a single point though Samphire. You've just said it's important and can't be ignored but you haven't actually said why, and now you're stropping off because someone has suggested you're not above board. Very odd.

I agree Eamonn. When a woman says she was raped and a man says it was consensual I never believe him - men lie about that all the time.

Yeah, but they lie about rape in about the same proportions as they lie about burglary to pad the insurance claim. I.e. about 3%.

If someone gets mugged, it feels like the first question people ask is "oh my god, were you hurt?" If someone gets raped, the first question people (in the press, round the watercooler, etc.) is "what did she do to send out misleading signals to the poor man?" We're seeing it on this thread. "Spread her legs", "wanted the part", "could have just walked out."

(Incidentally, my feeling on reading the "first person account" is that the Ansari case wasn't rape, just a remarkably insensitive man totally oblivious to the feelings of the woman he was with. And actually, at no point has the anonymous "Grace" ever said it was rape or sexual assault. I do take issue with the "not a mind reader" bit, though - you don't have to be a mind reader to know that if a woman repeatedly removes her hand from your penis after you've repeatedly placed it there, that's because the woman probably doesn't want it there.)

I agree Eamonn. When a woman says she was raped and a man says it was consensual I never believe him - men lie about that all the time

I know men lie all the time. Everyone lies.

I agree with Hackmum that Greer love controversy.

In The Female Eunuch she says women love male violence and if you don't want your husband or partner to beat you up all you need to do is make it clear you are not interested in that. Greer seems very irritated by victims in general. Whether women willingly 'spread their legs' for Weinstein or not is a moot point, he is accused of rape and sustained campaigns of sexual harassment.

I'm hardly stropping!

As I said, it is a bit hard to have an open discussion about why women may make some choices when the very idea that it may have been a choice is met with howls of indignation.

I am not a sock puppet, I am not a rape excuser, nor do I support #Ibelieveyou

It doesn't mean I am a bad person, a shit feminist or a misguided woolly liberal. It just means we disagree!

All that should tell you is that prostitution is coercion - where a person 'consents' to sex they don't want and would never have because they want/need something that the other person (man) is dangling in front of them. That women shrug their shoulders and say 'oh well don't whinge' makes my skin crawl - do you have so little respect for your fellow women, and yourself, that you don't see how fucked up that situation is? How unacceptable it is that men use this as a tactic to use women's bodies like wank receptacles?

Yes yes and yes. ^
Germaine Greer has written some interesting stuff, but she's not God and she's not right . "Spread your legs?" Fuck off love.
The film industry is like other industries on testosterone. It's a fucking bull pen. Women are tolerated as helpers (production staff and costume people) but they have very little real power. There are also very very few parts for women, and getting a career off the ground is brutal. Given the choice of "do this or I will ruin your chances forever" in light of these facts is not the same as "I think I'll suck my boss off for a corner office".

Men lie far more about rape than women do, which stands to reason given that only men can be convicted of it.

I never said anything about you being a rape excuser Samphire, nor did I call you a bad feminist or a woolly liberal. I asked you about your views but you didn't answer me.

Slightly off topic but I wonder if now the Weinsteins of Hollywood have been cornered we will now see far more gratuitous sex scenes etc in films instead.

I agree with her. Producers wouldn't pull this kind of shit if all the women just said no.

'Producers wouldn't pull this kind of shit if all the women just said no.' So women are responsible for the men's behaviour?

Probably because all I was saying was that closing down discussion about institutionalised rape is counter productive.

And posters here, including you, do make other posters feel uncomfortable in posting. That in itself is a good thing, everyone should check their belief and understanding. But when the discomfort is due to being so vehemently shut down all that happens is the cycle continues... because we cannot say plainly why women make the choices they do... and so we cannot, calmly, discuss how to negate the rape culture we all agree exists!

Producers wouldn't pull this kind of shit if all the women just said no.' So women are responsible for the men's behaviour

They are responsible for their own behaviour.

It could be that some women were OK with this arrangement and then this made other women who were not vulnerable to abuse.

disclaimer I do not think this is right*
That was the world of entertainment in the past. A cesspit IMO! I think we are entering a new age but as I said in a previous post women will still be exploited through inappropriate sexual scenes in films, music videos etc

'Producers wouldn't pull this kind of shit if all the women just said no.' So women are responsible for the men's behaviour? Like that!

Why couldn't you say something less aggressive, that invited the poster to see that they had, effectively, excused men for their choices?

Not everyone needs to be chewed up and spat out!

@EggsonHeads plenty of women said no to Weinstein, and he kept on trying it. So no, I don't think so.

I don't see how what I said was aggressive Curious. I wasn't rude, I didn't insult the poster, I just repeated back what they said in a different way.

Eamonn, you said that producers wouldn't pull this shit if women said no. Then you said they are responsible for their own behaviour. So I don't see what your original point was. Men do this of their own choice, it doesn't matter what women do. And it's not an accident that men are in a position where they can offer parts in return for sex and women feel they have no choice but to say yes - that's a situation created by men too.

To reiterate, as it seems to be necessary, the situation that we're talking about is one in which men have large amounts of money and power and they know that the woman in front of them has no power and is desperate for the job they're offering. Many of those women will have worked for years and years, earning very little, to get to the point where they're within touching distance of that job. The men know this, they know the woman's dreams and career are on the line. And they use that moment to force that woman to have sex with them - a woman who, in other circumstances, would have no interest in them.

So, the woman gets her dream but for the rest of her life she has to live with the fact that she didn't get that dream by working hard like her male co-stars (who incidentally are getting paid a lot more than she is) she got it by allowing someone she is repulsed by to put his penis in her vagina and she has to carry that memory with her for the rest of her life.

And the man? He feels totally happy that he got exactly what he wanted - power and control over a woman, the opportunity to humiliate and belittle her to make himself feel like the big powerful God. He'll go the rest of his life enjoying the way he violated another person.

Its not to just land the role, it is to avoid having your career ruined and never be able to work in the industry again.

Exactly

She spread her legs for him'
sounds totally different to 'she had sex with him'
but like I said I cant really pinpoint why

I know what you mean, I think when someone uses the term 'spreading her legs' it puts the onus solely on the woman. As if the woman is some sort of temptress and a man can't be expected to resist the temptation of a woman's open legs

A bit like how when a woman sleeps with lots of men she's a 'whore' but when a man sleeps with lots of women he's a 'stud'. It's just another way of shaming women.

Yes but that is how some women survived in a patriarchal society they traded sex for money/fame. Some women may have seen it in the past as a viable way to progress their career. Some women would flirt and give sex to move up the ladder some women would do it under duress. It is an old order that is slowly eroding. Old men that have much, much younger wives are trading power for sex etc the world still has a long way to go.

Obviously Harvey Weinstein and his ilk took that gentle coercion too far and they will be punished but how many women succumbed to this exchange as a fair trade?

It is wrong to suggest that no woman has ever used their sexuality to get things they want too.

Great post LeCroissant. You describe the situation perfectly.

I agree Lecroissant it was a crap time to be an aspiring actor in Hollywood for sure.

"that is how some women survived in a patriarchal society they traded sex. "

Because only the sluts and whores survived patriarchy, truly honorable women had the elegance and good manners to not survive what men were doing to them.

"Harvey Weinstein and his ilk took that gentle coercion"

Gentle coercion???

I don’t think the coerciveness (if that’s a word) can be underestimated. You have people who’s income relies on your income once you get to a certain level, managers, stylists, children. There’s a pressure to bring home the bacon. That’s the atmosphere you’re in. Yes you could walk out and never work in Hollywood again. How many starlets have a back up career? They’ve been working towards 1 goal since school.
If people genuinely can’t imagine the situation where you don’t want to perform a sexual act but you do it, and it being wrong, I think they need to broaden their horizons.
And finally. If it’s not assault and women are equally responsible put it on the bloody job application. Essential skills: stage fighting, French, 1 million Instagram followers and will gag on a cock for the producers.