Trans vs other protected characteristics

[Rudest75]

As somebody who has always been an advocate of both women's rights and LGBT rights I'm struggling to get my head around the recent trans debate. It seems to be an issue where you can't really support both sides, yet it's so less clear to me than is the case between most opposing ideologies like conservative vs liberal, nationalist vs multiculturalist, etc.

A common question around the bathroom debate seems to be "what rights exactly are trans people being denied?" When I try and apply this question to other protected characteristics I'm even more confused!

If we take the statement "trans people shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces because of a minority of dangerous men" how does this differ from the following examples?

"Muslims shouldn't be allowed in Christian spaces because of a small minority of terrorists/suicide bombers."

"Immigrants shouldn't be allowed in native spaces due to a small minority of rapists."

"Black people shouldn't be allowed in white spaces due to a small minority of gang members/Bloods/Crips."

I can't get my head around it!

OP, you are conflating material reality with social constructs, then expecting us to agree they are the same thing when they are not.
Your sex is a material reality you cannot change. Your religious beliefs are not.

And while I'm at it - fuck you TAs - for making out that my whole lived experience as a girl and then woman is nothing - fuck you for thinking that my periods, breast growth (and men staring at them), sexual harassment - is nothing. Fuck you for not knowing that I am oppressed for my reproductive ability, for my socialisation into caring for my babies, and breastfeeding is nothing. Fuck you - you will never get this.

*A little more aggressive that I usually am on this subject - but fuck it. I've had it with this nonsense. I'm going full on TERF. I've had enough. No man or boy who self identifies as a woman knows wtf it's about. They're all about feeling like a woman, and high heels and make-up - it's a goddamn male fantasy. Fuck off.

1. Reclaim the TERF. Make it lose power. If we bow to it, rail against it, we give it validity.

1. I believe every woman one day ‘gets it’, gets why she’s different to the other half of the population, gets why she’s treated differently. And then you have a feminist. I hope for enough if those girls, it’s motherhood that does it. Sadly, for many, it will be rape or a punch from the bloke they live with.

Apologies all if my posts have been construed as goady. I do have a pretty direct manner of discussion when posting anonymously online but I'm not purposefully trolling.

Ultimately, I suppose it's fair to say that I genuinely pity those who truly feel they were born in the wrong body and I find it hard to conflate transsexuals like the one on big brother with hardened sex offenders. I don't believe in self ID for the obvious threats described above but I'd happily welcome a genuine transwoman suffering from gender dysphoria into my changing space - we're not talking about Big Joe from the rugby team here.

What confuses it for me is that I struggle to identify with modern feminism despite being an advocate of women's rights in general. A lot of it seems very spiteful/bitter and this makes it harder to truly grasp people's true intentions. I met a lot of feminists while during my English degree as some modules were electives which crossed over with gender studies. A lot of these feminists just came across as bitter blue haired man haters if I'm honest - real life versions of 'Big Red' from the famous YouTube videos.

I don't believe that the term 'misandry' is solely the reserve of MRAs as stated. A quick search on here will show that many posters avoid the feminism section and dislike the 'man bashing'. Even today I read a poster asserting that due process should be abandoned in male trials as women had suffered enough.

The principle objection to allowing certain atypical men into women's spaces seems to be the actions of a small minority, which is why I mentioned the refugee example and the others. My personal approach is usually to decide whether I want to be an ally and then subsequently look at the challenges, rather than deciding whether to help based upon the difficulty of doing so - within reason obviously (I can't feed the whole of Africa from my kitchen, for example). In this instance, I want to help genuine transpeople who wish to live as the opposite sex and I'm not going to be put off by a minority of sexual deviants who aren't really the same demographic.

Was going to post more but I'm up at 6am and just realised the time...

Apologies all if my posts have been construed as goady. I do have a pretty direct manner of discussion when posting anonymously online but I'm not purposefully trolling. When you do it, it's direct, when we do it it's... see below

Ultimately, I suppose it's fair to say that I genuinely pity those who truly feel they were born in the wrong body and I find it hard to conflate transsexuals like the one on big brother with hardened sex offenders. How do you tell the difference? I don't believe in self ID for the obvious threats described above oops, you're a TERF but I'd happily welcome a genuine transwoman suffering from gender dysphoria into my changing space we have and still do - we're not talking about Big Joe from the rugby team here. Why not?

What confuses it for me is that I struggle to identify with modern feminism despite being an advocate of women's rights in general. A lot of it seems very spiteful/bitter or 'pretty direct manner of discussion' in your parlance and this makes it harder to truly grasp people's true intentions. I met a lot of feminists while during my English degree as some modules were electives which crossed over with gender studies. A lot of these feminists just came across as bitter blue haired man haters if I'm honest - real life versions of 'Big Red' from the famous YouTube videos. Now why might some women be tramatised and angry, let's think for a second or two?

I don't believe that the term 'misandry' is solely the reserve of MRAs as stated. A quick search on here will show that many posters avoid the feminism section and dislike the 'man bashing'. Women aren't a hive-mind Even today I read a poster asserting that due process should be abandoned in male trials as women had suffered enough. Terrible. Now what you do propose to do about the attached picture?

The principle objection to allowing certain atypical men into women's spaces seems to be the actions of a small minority, not small which is why I mentioned the refugee example and the others. My personal approach is usually to decide whether I want to be an ally and then subsequently look at the challenges, exactly what most women on here did rather than deciding whether to help based upon the difficulty of doing so - within reason obviously (I can't feed the whole of Africa from my kitchen, for example). In this instance, I want to help genuine transpeople who wish to live as the opposite sex and I'm not going to be put off by a minority of sexual deviants who aren't really the same demographic. And you wish to preserve and protect women's rights and safety...

Was going to post more but I'm up at 6am and just realised the time...

Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

So you only like women who fight for their rights if they do so in a polite and non aggressive mannner?

I don’t actually care if you think we’re ‘bitter’ or ‘spiteful’. These claims have been made against feminists (and black people, or working class people and any other oppressed group that speak out) since the beginning of patriarchy.

You have no problem with people being ‘direct’ in fact you are so yourself, only if it’s speaking up for women’s rights.

You say you’ve done research about this and I really don’t think you have. If you think it’s a small minority of men who get off on pushing women’s boundaries then you really are naive. There is a whole subsection of pornography dedicated to taking videos of women without their permission, there’s stories in the news every day of men who become drs, caretakers, open a hotel and drill a hole in the bathroom, film their family secretly for years. So many stories that it’s not even shocking anymore. So why does it seem unlikely that a man would just wander into a women’s bathroom if they could?
See what we are fighting for is the right to challenge a man in a women’s space, if self is goes through any man at any time can just say ‘I identify as a woman’ and the women would be breaking the law for challenging him.
There is nothing wrong with the way the law stands now, it protects women and it allows genuine transsexuals to use our facilities on the honour code that has always existed. Self identification is madness and that’s what we’re fighting.

Read the last two days of tweets from @fedupfemme

Women are not allowed to self identify as women if they do not agree with trans cult. Lesbians are transphobic because they are attracted to sex not gender.

There is a boy at my 12 year old daughters school. He is trans. He identifies as female. He dresses as female BUT he has a penis. Should he be allowed into my daughters changing rooms? He is a pre pubescent boy. She is a pubescent female. Regardless of their sexuality he has a penis! This is a real argument affecting my life right now.

Oh wow that twitter feed

The worst one is the young lesbian who’s like ‘I didn’t used to find trans women attractive but then I was made to see the error of my ways’

It’s awful. How on one hand can we be telling young women they are in charge of their own bodies and feelings and then on the other hand be saying they aren’t allowed not to want to suck a dick.
I notice a lot of the people in the argument are men too.
Straight man tells lesbian to suck dick, it’s a song as old as the hills.

OP, a very small number of gender recognition certificate have been given out. I think it's 300 or 400.

There are currently over 14,000 men in prison for sex offences.

Most of the men who are campaigning to get into women's spaces don't have a GRC. They are basing their 'right' on the equality law.

The 'genuine transsexuals' are not the ones who are campaigning to dismantle women's boundaries. They've never had to. They're not interested in politicising this issue.

It's this new wave of Johnny Come Lately transwomen who are at the forefront of the campaign.

Most of them remain genitally intact (85%). And are attracted to women.

Many have AGP which is a fetish that relies on seeing women as weak victims.

Miranda Yardley, one of your genuine transsexuals, who has zero interest in accessing women's spaces, writes about it on her blog.

One of her articles is called where have all the transvestites gone? (Answer? The are now lesbian men). And another is about autogynephilia (AGP). She is a transwoman, she lives in the community, she is on the inside, so to speak.

I agree with the previous poster who feels you are being naive.

This has gone way, way beyond helping men with gender dysphoria.

In fact it's transphobic to suggest that gender dysphoria is it any way necessary to be trans.

If you don't have gender dysphoria, you have a fetish. There is no other basis for transgenderism. (In men. Women transition for different reasons, none of which are sexual)

Transgenderism is now a catchall term which covers several different reasons for transitioning.

It polarises people because some motivation is benign and some certainly isn't.

And it often depends upon what kind of transwoman you know, and how much you have read.

Unfortunately, for genuine transsexuals, their narrative has been hijacked by all sorts of men who have no place, whatsoever, in women's spaces.

To better understand what makes people transition, I urge you to read this link. It's a very straightforward explanation. It's designed for parents, largely, who are concerned about their children. But it sets out the different types of gender dysphoria and how they manifest.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

OP your last post in particular makes you sound like someone who thinks trans ideology is a load of bollocks but is happy to use its neo-liberal veneer of "progressiveness" in order to attack feminists as bitter spiteful man hating harpies.

Same old same old.

I find it hard to conflate transsexuals like the one on big brother with hardened sex offenders

Perhaps because you can't see the wood for the trees. Let me help.

Transwoman on CBB = male

Vast vast majority of sex offenders = male

There is no conflating going on. Women know that not all men are sex offenders but that practically all sex offenders are men.

Society knows this hence it currently classifying humans according to sex for biological, practical but also sociopolitical reasons. Hence sex segregation as an acknowledgement that girls and women need protection from the class men as they have shown themselves as a class to be untrustworthy. This sex segregation is also culturally significant in terms of privacy and dignity as expressed by many women who would feel deeply uncomfortable in a state of undress even with a man they trust (father, brother, etc).

None of the above is man hating. It is observation of fact. Indeed it is women hating to deny these facts.

Transwoman on CBB = male

All transwomen are men.

India Willoughby (Big Brother contestant), Jane Faye, Shon Faye.

All biological men.

OP women have acheived female only spaces, for privacy and dignity because their anatomy and physiology is different to mens. Also, it is widely evident and accepted that they are at risk of sexual assualt from men, and it is not possible to identify which men will do this.
TIMs want us to pretend that we believe they are women and invite them into our spaces with their penises

Black and muslim people do not pose a greater threat to white people, than other white people. And their A&P is not different

I don't believe in self ID for the obvious threats described above but I'd happily welcome a genuine transwoman suffering from gender dysphoria into my changing space - we're not talking about Big Joe from the rugby team here

How do you identify a 'genuine transwomen' and how fo you know Big Jo isnt one?

I've just read this excellent post on genuine transwoman India Willoughby.

medium.com/@GappyTales/the-india-effect-what-celebrity-big-brother-can-teach-us-about-gender-politics-61091c9e77c2

Thank you DrRisotto who posted it on another thread.

It describes very well to me how (as Datun says) all transwomen are male. And we all know it.

I read this entire thread last night and my plan for this morning is to go through it again taking notes. I've got a CLP meeting coming up and while I don't know for sure if trans women on AWS will be mentioned, I think there's a good chance. I want to be prepared, and there are some absolutely superb arguments put forward here.

Many thanks to you all.

I don't believe in self ID for the obvious threats described above but I'd happily welcome a genuine transwoman suffering from gender dysphoria into my changing space - we're not talking about Big Joe from the rugby team here.

You may well feel happy to do so, especially if the person in this imagined situation is a personal friend, but how would you know if a complete stranger was a genuine, dysphoric transsexual? How can you tell?

Remember too that it is unlikely to just be 'your' changing space, and your decision to bring a man in would affect all the other women who are in there. Even a friend of yours is still a stranger to them.

You, of course, are free to take your clothes off in front of whichever men you choose. Bizarrely, you appear to think that you can make that decision for other women, too.

I struggle to identify with modern feminism

Yes, we can see that!

You don't think that other women's boundaries should be respected.

You are happy to make it easier for predatory men to access women and girls in a state of undress.

You are happy to sacrifice other women's rights in order to be an ally to men.

In short, you want to put men first.

Why?

irretating

I hope it goes well. Well done.

Report back!

The point about welcoming a man (or male person, if you prefer) into women's spaces came up the other week in conversation here with a very pleasant, non-pushy but nevertheless unseeing transwoman.

Fairly shortly after transitioning, she was invited to swim at the Hampstead women-only pool by some of her (female) friends. She said that no one seemed to mind.

It was absolutely news to her that people who DID mind might have been politely keeping it to themselves to protect her feelings; might have been shocked or startled; might have felt anxious; might have been unable to come back, once that trust had been broken.

Like any other well-meaning bloke, she had no idea why her presence might have caused a problem. No blame to her, and she immediately said that she would stick to the mixed pool in future. I think her friends were probably carried away by their own need to show their support, without giving a thought to the many women they didn't know.

That was particularly interesting because it was a classic display of male privilege. The poster assumed that if no-one challenged them then no-one had a problem. It didn't occur to them that women are less confrontational than men and less likely to challenge.

I feel a bit sorry for Big Joe from the rugby club.

OP - why can't Big Joe be trans? Because he's big? Because he plays rugby?

Why would physical size make a difference to how someone feels inside?

What has rugby to do with anything. Women play rugby, you know that, right?

You seem to be working with stereotypes here - Big Joe who plays rugby is a proper manly man and so haha obviously if he says he's trans he's taking the piss / trying it on.

Your attachments to stereotypes here is telling.

It is irrelevant how tall / big / strong a man is. In TA view, anyone who says they are a woman, is literally a woman, and always has been. No questions no argument. And to question this is the type of transphobia that results in deaths.

For lots of women, it doesn't matter what a man looks like, how tall or short he is or what sports he does, if he's been born to the observation "it's a boy" ie he has a cock and calls then he's a bloke. That person may be trans and be a trans woman, but they are not literally female. Further, as women can't tell which men are "bad" and which are not, and have been socialised from children to be wary of men, especially in secluded situations, the idea that we accept any man into said secluded spaces / intimate situations on their sayso that they are "safe" feels completely bonkers.

So, there's no middle ground.

Like I say, I find your adherence to traditional ideas of masculinity very interesting. Maybe have a bit of a think about why you feel that way.