Trans vs other protected characteristics

[Rudest75]

As somebody who has always been an advocate of both women's rights and LGBT rights I'm struggling to get my head around the recent trans debate. It seems to be an issue where you can't really support both sides, yet it's so less clear to me than is the case between most opposing ideologies like conservative vs liberal, nationalist vs multiculturalist, etc.

A common question around the bathroom debate seems to be "what rights exactly are trans people being denied?" When I try and apply this question to other protected characteristics I'm even more confused!

If we take the statement "trans people shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces because of a minority of dangerous men" how does this differ from the following examples?

"Muslims shouldn't be allowed in Christian spaces because of a small minority of terrorists/suicide bombers."

"Immigrants shouldn't be allowed in native spaces due to a small minority of rapists."

"Black people shouldn't be allowed in white spaces due to a small minority of gang members/Bloods/Crips."

I can't get my head around it!

Tell me, why do transmen still think sex is important when transwomen apparently think its not?

why is there a difference?

or are transmen, in fact transphobic, for saying that sex still matters more than their gender in certain situations?

Well that OP's a load of bunkum. It doesn't matter what colour, religion, sexuality etc a woman is. She has the right to access female spaces. No man (of which TW are a subset) should be in there, no what colour, religion, sexuality etc they are. What, then, is the point of it?

Maybe I'm just too empathetic as an individual, but I think I'd be content to make what is likely in reality to be a small concession if it spared an entire group from abject misery

Pissing where they have always pissed is not condemning them to abject fucking misery. Too empathetic. Fuck off.

"Maybe I'm just too empathetic"

Expecting women to shut up and make way for men, isn't the definition of empathy.

trans people shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces because of a minority of dangerous men"

I wouldn't say this is the argument at all. Its more..transwomen should not be in female spaces as they are male. On top of this yes, some males are very dangerous to women, as the statistics tell us. Therefor I would like to keep sex segregation to protect women as much as possible.

I can understand people who argue along the lines of 'sex segregation is unneeded, everything should be unisex'. I disagree with that view but at least it makes sense. What does not make any sense at all is the view that we do need sex segregation but we should allow people to self identify which sex they are and males can enter female spaces because of a feeling in their head.

I’ll add to Datun’s list that someone on here, I forget who, sorts out shared two-person accommodation for students.

She has to do this by declared gender, not actual sex.

She is not permitted to mention in advance to a student that in fact, her roommate might be a male - even though sometimes she knows that they are.

I don’t know about you, Rudest, but I wouldn’t be happy with that for myself or my teenage daughter.

I noticed, by the way, that your position is ‘of course I know they’re not really women’. Yes. Indeed. Makes you a TERF though.

I could be wrong, but I think the younger generation will accept trans people in a way that the older generation hasn't. I know this will come as a bitter pill to many but I think it's likely inescapable tbh.

In what way are we not accepting them? We are just saying they are not women (which is what you’ve said too) so shoudnt be in women’s spaces.

Oh lol

Us on the FWR boards aren't just "misandrists" but sadly members of "the older generation" and it seems like we may, shocker, be "bitter"

I could never have guessed any of that was coming

I think it is highly possible that some of our number are simply jealous of this new glamorous competition

I would be glad to see that happen rudest. But I'm in a minority here.

What I'm saying is that I think many young women will welcome transwomen into their spaces.

"What I'm saying is that I think many young women will welcome transwomen into their spaces."

Why would you assume that?

The current adult generation in uproar did not grow up with the discussion around trans people so feel it's forced on them.

The next generation is growing up with it so it's more normal to them and easier to accept. This has been the case with racial issues and gay issues in the past. Trans issues are next in line.

I'm sure you'll disagree that this issue is special because because .....

Every resistant group has felt the same.

My dd and her friends are in their early 20's. Absolutely not prepared to share their hard won rights or move out of the way for men wearing make up, with no input from me. That's how they see them - men wearing make up.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I wonder how many lives will be destroyed in the process.

"What I'm saying is that I think many young women will welcome transwomen into their spaces."

When you say "their spaces" do you mean their cunts?

That seems to be the aim of many TAs. Very focussed on getting into women's knickers, especially lesbian's knickers. Which, ironically, is like a big flashing sign over their head saying "bloke".

Myaunty, your daughter sounds charming. You are clearly proud of her calling trans women 'men in makeup'. You should be ashamed.

Justanotherzombie can you see no reason why self ID will be an issue in sports for example? or prisons?

How do you see things playing out in these areas?

Young women from privileged backgrounds (those being the kind of young women most likely to consider themselves 'trans allies') are often naive about the risks that males pose to them, that's true. Experience, unfortunately, usually teaches them otherwise. If you ask those same 16-21 year old uni kids what their opinions are in ten years time, I doubt most would still feel as supportive of males appropriating womanhood.

Why do you think that there is such a divide between young (uni aged and younger) women and seemingly the rest of the female population on the matter of trans self-ID? Because once you get past your early twenties, most women will have experienced sexism and male sexual entitlement and violence first hand. There's a reason why trans activists seek to recruit women of age bracket with the least amount of life experience to act as their facilitators.

Hold on so teenage girls are literally not supposed to notice when a woman is quite obviously a man with some eyeshadow on?

They are literally supposed to not notice?

That is an ask too far, unless you want their eyes put out.

There are many young women on this board and I personally know young women who question it. Although many women come to feminism later in life, when they’ve had a healthy dose of pregnancy discrimination, sexual harassment etc

Each generation seems to be more progressive than the last in general, and also because they will have grown up with such concepts as gender fluidity which seem to have only come into the spotlight on recent years and are predominantly championed by the young - I.e. genderfluid youtubers/bloggers etc

What I'm saying is that I think many young women will welcome transwomen into their spaces.

In the short term, maybe.

In the long term, the detransitioners will cause huge scandals, fucked up safeguarding will cause huge scandals, those who are young now will realise their mistake when biology catches up with them, and the following generation will have to re-do work already done just to get back to where their grandmothers were. The daughters of this generation will not forgive their mothers.