The GRA in Ireland

[Thehairthebod]

I have seen a lot of reference to the GRA in Ireland, where self ID has been implemented. It keeps being referenced by TRAs as something to aspire to, as there have been no problems in Ireland since it was implemented.

Does anyone know much about this and what it all means in practice in Ireland?Obviously Ireland has a slightly different take on women's rights, although I know there are many many women fighting tooth and nail against the abortion laws.

The thing is, I feel like I am against self ID as a concept regardless of whether certain groups are safer or less safe under a particular system. I am against self ID for many reasons, which I guess overarch into the erasure of 'woman' as a material reality.

Anyway, can anyone more knowledgeable than myself fill me in?

We've had quite a few Irish posters on here talking about it.

Firstly, there are a minuscule number of transwomen in Ireland and they don't have the same transactivist militancy that we have here.

Secondly, the prison situation doesn't arise as they are not allowed to be transferred to a female prison, no matter what.

Lastly, what a lot of them have said is that, apparently, gender roles are more entrenched there, so men making a point of accessing women's spaces isn't tolerated, culturally.

As far as I know, there hasn't yet been any data collected about the impact of self ID. But that is changing.

Thanks Datun.

Secondly, the prison situation doesn't arise as they are not allowed to be transferred to a female prison, no matter what.

Oh really? Interesting....

So it's not quite the trans utopian it's made out to be then?

I'm Irish and wasn't even aware it had become law here until I started reading up on trans issues having read about it here. It very much came in under the radar but as Datun said we don't seem to have the same level of millitancy here so it's not as big an issue (yet, anyway).

The equality laws are different too. Ireland's has different characteristics from the UK and exemptions based on privacy and embarrassment.

exemptions based on privacy and embarrassment.

That's interesting. How does that translate to real life situations?

My answer to people who speak about Ireland and Argentina as a shining example of self ID is that their women's rights are bloody shocking.

This document is useful
www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/ihrec_equal_status_rights_explained.pdf

^Gender
You can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve
physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on.
You can also be treated differently if there is a risk that you could be
embarrassed because of a lack of privacy.
Example
A woman might feel embarrassed having a body massage, a body
wax, or hair laser removal by a man, and can request a female
member of staff to do it instead.^

^Accommodation exemptions
Gender
In relation to shared accommodation the Acts allow people to be treated
differently in relation to personal privacy where lack of privacy might
cause embarrassment^

^Educational establishments - exemptions
Gender
Single sex schools are allowed. Primary and secondary schools may be
boys only or girls only.
Religion and Gender
Institutions providing religious training to ministers of a particular religion
may admit students of only one gender or religious belief.^

To a certain extent gender and sex are used interchangeably in it but you can be damn sure that priest training colleges won't be admitting women identifying as men.

Drat. Formatting fail. Anything in between ^^ is taken from the document.

As far as I can see the university guidelines are all about making some toilets gender neutral (converting disabled and single cubicle toilets etc). But it's becoming more a "thing" in universities so I can see it becoming more militant and therefore more of a problem.

The main advice and support group TENI have sadly drunk the Kool-Aid and there are trans awareness weeks cropping up in schools, but the main attitude of anyone I've spoken to irl is "ffs, don't be silly".

I'm waiting for the next great hope in Irish sport being pipped to an Olympic medal by a transwoman - the shit'll hit the fan then.

To a certain extent gender and sex are used interchangeably in it but you can be damn sure that priest training colleges won't be admitting women identifying as men.

Will this apply to convents where nuns, women, are?

Plus men train for the priesthood, women just join.

This is an incredibly useful thread! I always took it as a given that the situation in Ireland mirrored that of the U.K, but it seems that although transwomen can self-ID more easily over there, in practice it doesn't actually enable them to access many single-sex spaces? That's very interesting, and certainly puts a rather different light on self-ID that the TA like to claim. Fascinating, thank you!

I can imagine very few Irish people thinking, "Oh gosh, if I say anything to this obvious pervert parading his member in the dressing rooms, I might be accused of a hate crime!" If someone's being a gobshite the vast majority will call them on it and not be bothered about some legislation. I would feel confident that any male customer or employee would help me with a, "Ffs don't be such a langer and get out of the changing room and let this lady change in peace" - not so much in the UK.

Also, communities are less transient so people don't need to worry about encountering random transwomen in changing rooms. If there are any in the community, they will be known and people will be accustomed to them and know they're ok.

Yes Bee I am glad I asked the question now

Flavia thanks for that link. So actually there are quite a few exceptions to self-identity, which do turn on biological reality. Well there ya go!

So for cosmetic procedures you can ask for a female, but not medical?

Elendon its just as unlikely to me.

Medical scenarios would be covered by privacy I think. I'm in NI so not familiar with the health care but I think it would be covered by both privacy and embarrassment. Not sure tbh.

FlaviaAlbia

I've had a skim through the first 2/3 of that document. Although they mention transgender in the beginning, they don't specify throughout the rest of it.

So this

The Acts allow educational establishments to treat people di erently on the basis of gender, age or disability but only to the extent that the di erences are necessary having regard to the nature of the facilities or events.

It doesn't make it clear if it's based on gender or sex, despite saying gender.

They talk a lot about men/women and girls/boys, but don't specify, as far as I can tell, whether those groups include people who identify in that way.

Which is the problem we have here. You can specify that something is for women only, whilst at the same time allowing men who identify as women to access it.

So whilst that document sounds reassuring, by women, do they mean women, or do they mean people who are legally women?

Perhaps I have missed where it specifically explained?

No, it's almost purposely vague and uses sex, gender seemingly interchangeably while using male female elsewhere.

However, I'm basing my assumptions off the prison scenario, where men will be held with men regardless of how they identify.

However, I'm basing my assumptions off the prison scenario, where men will be held with men regardless of how they identify.

As far as I know, that is the only strict legal exception.

Here you can only be transferred as long as you have a GRC. Not so in Ireland.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3098673-Self-certification-in-other-countries

Thanks cuir some good points on that thread.

Helpful thread.

So Ireland is actually stricter on prison placement than the UK with their GRC model? You wonder what cases it does make a practical difference self declaring your gender. What about toilets, is it just accepted they use those of their biological sex or gender neutral and people can legitimately enforce this?

It doesn't seem to have caused an explosion in the numbers identifying as transgender at least.

I am in Ireland and have written to the minister for justice here about the operation of the Gender Recognition Act. I will post up the replies when I get them.

I read a report that said there were only 2 transgender prisoners over a few years. I prisoners here are housed according to their birth cert, however birth certs can be changed, so I think there is a theoretical possibility of males in female prisons here, even if it has not happened yet.

I have asked about this and other issues in my letter. I think there is a good chance that some of these issues have not been ironed out in law yet and that they are winging it a bit (e.g. what happens when there is a conflict between trans-rights and privacy rights of women?).

We have a written constitution and as far as I can remember (I haven't read it in over 20 years, so take this with a grain of salt ), there are some clauses which protect bodily privacy/integrity. I know someone took a case a few decades ago about flouridisation of the water system on the basis of bodily integrity I think. Surprisingly they lost. But I think the case for privacy in changing rooms etc would be a much easier win.

Two men in women’s prisons atm, I believe.