Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The GRA in Ireland

38 replies

Thehairthebod · 16/01/2018 09:31

I have seen a lot of reference to the GRA in Ireland, where self ID has been implemented. It keeps being referenced by TRAs as something to aspire to, as there have been no problems in Ireland since it was implemented.

Does anyone know much about this and what it all means in practice in Ireland?Obviously Ireland has a slightly different take on women's rights, although I know there are many many women fighting tooth and nail against the abortion laws.

The thing is, I feel like I am against self ID as a concept regardless of whether certain groups are safer or less safe under a particular system. I am against self ID for many reasons, which I guess overarch into the erasure of 'woman' as a material reality.

Anyway, can anyone more knowledgeable than myself fill me in?

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 05/04/2020 13:02

October 2019 Law Society Gazette Ireland

'Male-bodied transgender inmate housed with women
Criminal defence lawyer Robert Purcell says that the Gender Recognition Act 2015 has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners.'
(extract)
The law is challenging for the courts and the Irish Prison Service, he believes, since there is, potentially, a safety issue for women inmates housed alongside a male-bodied prisoner.

Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

This is understood to be the first time that an inmate, registered as male at birth, has been housed in a women’s prison in Ireland.

When before the court last July, the prisoner was in possession of a gender recognition certificate.

High level of monitoring
It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

The prisoner is accompanied by two officers at all times while in the common areas of the detention facility.

“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

Robert Purcell is chair of the Law Society Criminal Law Committee: “The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation.

Problems
“I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said." (continues)

Fíona Ní Chinnéide of the Irish Penal Reform Trust (IPRT) said: “This is a really complex situation for the prison service to manage.

“There are safety concerns, whether the transgender person is accommodated in a male prison or a female prison.

“However, as a situation that arises very infrequently, it is appropriate both that a policy is in place, and that the IPS manages it on a case-by-case basis.”

Prisoner safety
She said that many women in prison had prior experience of violence and abuse, including sexual, emotional and domestic abuse.

If a prisoner had a history of gender-based violence against women, then this would need to be taken into account in decision-making about placement and regimes, she said.

“It is also important to highlight what makes prisons safer. Prison safety is improved through reduction in overcrowding, provision of single-cell accommodation, access to mental and physical healthcare, and meaningful structured activities, such as education, training and work.

“Safety in prisons is undermined on the other hand by overcrowding, doubling-up in cells, long lock-up times, and lack of mental healthcare.”

She continued: “The Irish Prison Service cannot transfer anyone between a male and a female prison; they can only transfer within the female prison estate, or within the male prison estate.

Isolation
“There are complex challenges in the accommodation of any minority in what is a small prison system. The creation of specific facilities for transgender prisoners in Ireland would be largely impractical, and risk individuals being held in isolation.

“Solitary confinement and isolation can have severe and lasting psychological effects, and must be avoided for all prisoners. Assigning additional staff to ensure the safety of a prisoner is preferable to detaining anyone on their own. (continues)

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

DuchessDumbarton · 05/04/2020 15:06

Watching, as I don't have anything intelligent to add.
But I will say that Ireland is not a haven of well-balanced transgender rights.
My profesional organisation has drunk the kool-aid and declares that men can be pregnant. Bonkers.
And one of DC's school had a trans woman in to do a talk on LGBT....nothing about LGB and lots of trans talk. DC was v annoyed.

GrainneWail · 05/04/2020 23:49

Duchess, that's worrying. I presume (hope?) senior cycle of secondary school?

Irish girl guides has also gone full on twaw. It's potentially a problem for an IGG unit I have experience in.

WrathofFaeKIopp · 05/04/2020 23:58

I was under the impression that Ireland had made prisons an exception with regards to self ID.

But hey, where there's a loophole.

AnyOldSpartabix · 06/04/2020 08:53

But hey, where there's a loophole.

And looking at the dates, this thread is a perfect example of why countries shouldn’t jump into self-ID on the grounds that “there have been no problems in other jurisdictions where it’s been introduced.”

If that were even true (it isn’t) you have to add the word “YET”. It can take years before unconsidered problems can become incontestably clear. And the damage done in that time can be immense.

DuchessDumbarton · 06/04/2020 12:32

Yes, Grainne Senior Cycle Secondary.
I was quite annoyed- whilst I had given permission for them to attend all the SPHE classes, I hadn't thought that this would be part of it.
And I feel it was somewhat underhanded, as the school didn't tell me, nor did DC Hmm. I saw it posted online in another context.

not2daysanta · 06/04/2020 15:53

The cognitive dissonance in this thread reminds me of how gun-advocates in the US talk about gun control ("it'd never work here", "oh, it just works in those other countries because they're different").

RedDogsBeg · 06/04/2020 19:46

not2daysanta Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

If you think that is a sign that Self-ID works and is entirely benign and nothing to worry about you need your head testing.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2020 20:49

The cognitive dissonance in this thread reminds me of how gun-advocates in the US talk about gun control

Could you elucidate?

Apollo440 · 06/04/2020 21:05

I think you don't know what cognitive dissonance is not2daysanta.

DreadPirateLuna · 06/04/2020 23:10

The GRA was passed in Ireland 5 years ago, so it's a bit early to say it's "worked".
Additionally, Ireland has a population of less than 5 million (compared to 66m in the UK) and transgender people obviously a tiny proportion of that, so it would likely take even longer for a troublesome case (e.g. a J Yaniv or Karen White) to crop up.

Fantasmagorical · 07/04/2020 08:52

Also, as stated above, there are protections in the constitution for women around privacy and dignity.

Kantastic · 07/04/2020 11:48

That comment was very hard to interpret! But I think I have it now.

Someone took it for granted that the bullshit they'd been fed that "it doesn't cause any problems in Ireland" was true, and took it upon themselves to berate the women here based on the thread title alone, without even reading the thread to find out that the sugar-sprinkled bullshit they'd been greedily scoffing down is in fact bullshit, and self-ID is in fact causing problems in Ireland.

Ridiculous. I can't wrap my head around the intellectual incuriousity and blind devotion to dogma. It feels like something fundamental is broken in these people's brains but I think it's just that social media gives a mic to every idiot and Dunning-Kruger does the rest.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page