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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour party invents new bollocks made-up non-existent definition for woman

800 replies

pisacake · 11/01/2018 14:29

labour.org.uk/members/get-involved/national-youth-elections-2018/

Sixteen uses of the word 'self-defining woman'. Zero uses of 'female', 'biology', or plain 'woman'.

'Woman' is now literally meaningless. A woman can be a bog-standard heterosexual teenage male (Lily Madigan), if he says so.

And obviously with half the places reserved for 'self-defining women' (not 'women', 'self-defining women'), then there's not really any reason why men wouldn't define themselves a women, is there?

If misogynistic shits like Lily Madigan can 'self-define as a woman', well ALL men are women, aren't they?

The whole bloody human race is 'self-defined women'.

Stupid Labour.

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Glitterypinksoap · 13/01/2018 13:04

This thread is not about to be deleted. A deletion message had been put up on the thread about the legal challenge to the Labour Party over this because it linked to the crowdfunding page. That thread is now gone.

jeaux90 · 13/01/2018 13:06

I'm with upabitlate on this. There is a good case but even if it's lost the media attention will be worth it. Please donate if you can.

PencilsInSpace · 13/01/2018 13:06

I also think there is point in bringing this even if they lose. ie publicity. If people only ever brought court cases when they were 100% guaranteed to win then we'd lose quite a lot wouldn't we. In terms of hearing about what is going on in the country, and who cares about what.

Yes, I certainly won't feel my donation was wasted if they lose.

Mner · 13/01/2018 13:19

I agree as well re the case still being important even if we lose.

LangCleg · 13/01/2018 13:27

I also think there is point in bringing this even if they lose. ie publicity.

Yep. I agree. There is a need for a concerted effort at strategic litigation. If this starts that ball rolling, it can only be a good thing. And it might give the Labour Party pause for thought also.

NotTerfNorCis · 13/01/2018 13:28

TRAs are trying to get the funding campaign shut down now:

twitter.com/hashtagbroom/status/952169141405995008

SophoclesTheFox · 13/01/2018 13:32

Jennifer James is now asking for suggestions of how the money is used. Personally, I'm happy for it to be used to fund a legal challenge, however that may happen (not sure of the intricacies). Or the alternative is to use it to start lobbying. I'd be happy for my cash to go to supporting a grass roots campaign for women (xx type only) in the party, in the mould of Momentum. Anyone know how that got started and funded? Proof that the party can be co-opted by people with an agenda - that could be us!

Redonionricedpotato · 13/01/2018 13:33

If they get it shut down I might actually implode with rage!!

QuentinSummers · 13/01/2018 13:38

Legal campaign and then if anything is left, support to fair play for wimen

irretating · 13/01/2018 13:44

TRAs are trying to get the funding campaign shut down now:

Not just any TRA, but a right on lefty male TRA. Perish the thought that political representation for trans people eats in to the number of male MPs. No, much better to reduce the number of female MPs while still leaving men comfortably in the majority.

LangCleg · 13/01/2018 13:55

If this gets shut down, I will definitely die of a rage stroke.

catgirl1976 · 13/01/2018 14:04

Report his tweet - if enough of us do it might get removed

Fight fire with fire and all that

His tweet in my opinion seeks to shut down the voices of women which is therefore harmful to a group of people and violates twitters rules

pisacake · 13/01/2018 14:08

thanks I reported his tweets on the grounds of hatred towards a group of people

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catgirl1976 · 13/01/2018 14:13

Me too. I can't believe how we are shut down at every angle.

There is nothing transphobic in the gofundme campaign

I wonder if she would have been better to have presented that she wanted to challenge as it was discriminatory to transmen as well as women to prevent the oh so predicatble shrieks of transphobia and the attempt to get it removed

HaruNoSakura · 13/01/2018 14:17

So the trans male example is an interesting one. An argument can be made that this is discriminatory against trans men as it seeks to exclude them from selection. There's two problems with that:

i) The way the law works in England & Wales, and across Britain as a whole, means that a trans man would have to bring a case to court arguing this point. In terms of Equality law courts do not work on hypothetical situations, they need an actual case in front of them. Not only that, but plaintiff also has to actively show that they have been unreasonably disadvantaged, to the point of being discriminated against, under the terms of EA2010.

ii) Labour has two lines to argue with the court;

a) this is solely an internal political party issue as to how, within reasonable limits, they choose to define whether somebody meets the criteria for selection or not and that is solely an internal party issue to define, again within reason, what those criteria are. Therefore, whilst it would be unreasonable to say that women may not stand for selection, it is reasonable for the Labour party, via it's own internal mechanisms, to define, again within an objective test of what is reasonable compared to what the goals are, who is a woman for the purposes of selection to a specialised short-list, and that if a person does not meet that criteria, they then have the full opportunity afforded to any party member to join a general short-list, and therefore are not being unduly discriminated against. This line of argument has a fair degree of success. Courts are loath to get involved in internal political party issues and unless the plaintiff can show that the Labour Party is acting objectively unreasonably in their particular case by not accepting that they are woman even though they personally identify as a man (and that's a really tricky proposition), the courts will probably accept the argument that the specialised short-list has been solely drawn up under the provisions of EA2010 s11 & s104, and so s7 doesn't come into play.

or b) if the courts decide that the Labour party has been too broad in its internal definition of who is a woman solely in terms of use of definition within the internal workings of the party (and I should point out that is really unlikely, these are definitions in use for internal party business only and have been decided for use either directly by party members through conference measures, or through decisions made by party officials who themselves are party members duly elected into position to make those decisions by party members), then the argument can then be advanced that although the specialised short-lists in question are being drawn up under the auspices of EA2010 s11 & s104, with some level of regard to s7, the trans man in question is not being unduly discriminated against as the discrimination being imposed is of less harm than the benefits being accrued by providing a certain level of discrimination, and that mitigation of that discrimination has been provided through relief as the plaintiff still has full access to all other applicable short-lists. The second part of this argument is less certain to succeed, because it comes down to asking the courts to balance perceived harm against the benefits of achieving a beneficial goal.

Somebody asked about discrimination against agender, or non-binary, people. Again, part (i) of the above argument stands, somebody who is agender or non-binary would have to bring a case, and then the courts would just bounce the case, claiming that it's internal party issue because at the moment neither Westminster, or the relevant national ruling bodies, recognise the existence of agender or non-binary people and therefore the courts cannot make a ruling because these aren't recognised characteristics within law and aren't covered by EA2010. It is solely up to the internal mechanisms and workings of a political party as to how, if, and when they choose to recognise and make provision for agender or non-binary people.

If I remember right, somebody asked about the use of the term 'self-definition' or 'self-defining'. Trying to make that an issue in court is a no-flyer. A really quick legal argument off the top of my head (so not the best) that could be placed in front of the courts would look something like:

i) {Objective test for reasonableness) It is reasonable to make the assumption that within an average person's lifetime they will have, at some point, filled in a field or ticked a box on a form that asks for their sex or gender, and that

ii) unless specifically stated otherwise within the body of law, the law recognises that the use of the terms gender and sex are used interchangeably within common use, and that

iii) given the provisions of (i) and (ii) it is reasonable to assume that an average person will have self-defined their gender and sex via self-declaration.

I should point out as well, these are just personal observations of how legal arguments may be made. There are going solicitors and barristers involved with a great deal more experience who are going to be much more sophisticated and nuanced arguments so please take what I'm saying as solely a personal view on the legal side of what arguments may be presented.

Apocalyptichorsewoman · 13/01/2018 14:19

I have reported his tweet.

PocketCoffeeEspresso · 13/01/2018 14:21

I think that at some point, someone needs to go to court to define sex and gender as separate. Otherwise, yes, there is going to be this (intentional on the part of TRAs) confusion.

When I tick woman, I mean sex, I do not mean gender, unless they are talking grammatical gender, which is linked to the sex of the person. If I tick a box as 'gender female' my intention is that my sex, and hence my grammatical gender is female. I do not believe in a separate, gendered soul, and I believe that gender is a social construct which I do not identify with.

pisacake · 13/01/2018 14:25

I am not sure it's a fight that will be won under current legislation. I mean in America they managed to retrospectively decide that sex and gender are the same, and use 1970s sex discrimination laws for transpeople.

Here we have actual legislation explicitly protecting trans people. Parliament needs to be lobbied directly. Courts won't work.

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HaruNoSakura · 13/01/2018 14:28

ugh, no edit button, sorry one of the lines should end:

...because it comes down to asking the courts to balance perceived harm against the benefits of achieving a perceived beneficial goal.

DonutChamp · 13/01/2018 14:34

How do I find the link to the crowdfunding page? I would like to donate.

pisacake · 13/01/2018 14:35

google "keep all-women shortlists female"

it's the second link

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Elendon · 13/01/2018 14:37

On reflection, I've donated.

This is about the laws that govern the political party that is Labour. It is separate from domestic UK laws.

Elendon · 13/01/2018 14:40

Donut

twitter.com/hashtagbroom/status/952169141405995008

You might want to click on this link and then click on the link he puts up.

Linguini · 13/01/2018 14:59

Well I emailed my "feminist" (intersectional libber right wing) MP... vane attempt to peak trans them but they probably won't even see it.